Ideas for the future of K-Mod

satrapper

Warlord
Joined
Mar 26, 2012
Messages
154
to my mind, k-mod is a near flawless version of bts. it doesn't make dramatic changes to the overall game like many mods, but all the under-the-hood improvements and little adjustments combine to make it seem more like a service pack (to use windows parlance) for bts. i couldn't envisage playing any civ game without it or indeed any mod that is not build on it.

i created this thread because i was just thinking about what else is missing/unfixed from k-mod and came up with very little. bugs and oos errors just dont happen (to me :)) anymore and the ai is a level of magnitude better than the base game.

anyway, without going beyond the scope of the mod, one thing i would like to see is that when you grant independance to a colony that you get a pop up to choose which civ/leader is spawned.

if anyone else has suggestions or ideas maybe they can post them and perhaps karadoc might get inspiration from our outlandish creativity/ rank stupidity :crazyeye:.
 
Personally, I think you can never call a mod like this done because there are always things in AI to improve. So I hope karadoc never calls it done. :)

So since the topic is about ideas, I wanted to bring up diplomacy.

How moddable is diplomacy? I was wondering if karadoc had any plans to change / improve diplomacy. Maybe add some of the features from Civ 5 like declaration of friendships, denouncements, "Give us 10 turns" option when someone asks you to declare war, etc. Especially the "10 turns" option is something I like in Civ 5.

Also maybe make diplomatic effects of religion a little more interesting than a slowly increasing diplomatic bonus. I don't know if it's a good idea to use a higher precision number to track diplomatic standing (+1.25 instead of +1 for example) but it's something that came to my mind.

Anyway, these are some random ideas about diplomacy so I wanted to share and see if anyone (especially karadoc of course) would have any interest.
 
I know Diplomacy has been modded in other mods so I'm betting alot could be done if karadoc wants to.

Stuff I know been done is being able to trade Siege/Ships/Workers, splitting Open Borders in to 2 parts, 1 just trade routes and non-military Units can pass borders + a second option to include Military, trading for Votes (ie resources/gpt).
 
splitting Open Borders in to 2 parts, 1 just trade routes and non-military Units can pass borders + a second option to include Military
This is something that has bugged me forever! There is a huge difference in allowing scouts / missionaries in to letting another army wander all over your land!
 
The 10 turns prep time for war is one thing that I do semi-intend to implement. I think it's a good idea, but there are some technical hurdles. My current thinking is that it's probably best not to have a forced declaration of war after 10 turns, but rather have an option to tell the AI to ask again later - and then when they do ask again, the diplomatic consequences for refusing would be larger. (I think I posted this in the main thread at one stage.)

As for splitting Open Borders into military and non-military component; I'm sure that's doable, but I'm not really convinced it would be good for gameplay. I'm concerned that it would just be another thing to micro-manage which adds very little depth of strategy to the game. -- It might help with the immersion of the game. But I'm not really sure if it's worth changing that long-standing rule.

Generally speaking, I don't expect there to be very many big changes to K-Mod rules. The inertia of the old rules is just too big to get stuff moving unless there's a strong push. -- I still want K-Mod to feel like the standard BtS rules. So when people talk about stuff like split-system for Open Borders, and attack bonus when attacking from a hill onto flatland, and lower instant-healing when using promotions, and so on, I tend to think "well, that sounds like a good idea - but maybe it's better suited to a different mod". .. and with all those good ideas that are suited to a different mod, I start to think that maybe I should make a separate branch of K-Mod where I just go ahead and rip up the old rules to implement new ones... but I don't think I really have the energy to maintain two separate mods like that.

Spoiler :
I'm actually very tempted to do the lower instant-heal thing in K-Mod. I found Lenowill's arguments for it pretty convincing. (At least I think it was Lenowill. I don't clearly remember at the moment.)
 
As for splitting Open Borders into military and non-military component; I'm sure that's doable, but I'm not really convinced it would be good for gameplay. I'm concerned that it would just be another thing to micro-manage which adds very little depth of strategy to the game. -- It might help with the immersion of the game. But I'm not really sure if it's worth changing that long-standing rule.

Just in case, Afforess implemented it in its "Advanced Diplomacy" mod component.

Personally, I like it. It does add a little bit of depth and it's probably more realistic.
 
I start to think that maybe I should make a separate branch of K-Mod where I just go ahead and rip up the old rules to implement new ones

Have you thought about declaring Version 1 finished? Start work on version 2 with some of the bigger changes and only change something in v1 if you find a really major bug?
 
Early game AI rushes. At higher levels with AI bonuses if you're unlucky the game is over before it starts Vedic Aryan style.

Also Events, maybe they're beyond the scope of this mod but K-Mod balanced events would be awesome.

Rebalancing of some of the civs? (like nerf Quechua, buff Duns)
 
The instant heal thing was indeed me.

I've been quite busy, but have recently tried working on my own modding again. :)
 
I too think that this mod has gone into great way and I'm using this mod as a base for everything now.

What I'd like as well is rebalancing of some civs and especially unique units.

For about units could there be chance of making earlier uppgrade for cavalry as gunships are available far too late for them and for me they are too weak in the industrialism era.
 
I would like to see some major balance adjustments. There are so many units and buildings in the game that are woefully imbalanced. As it is, I'm already pretty much bored of Civ 4. I used to average 2 games/week for the first year or so after BTS, and that dropped to 1 game/week for the last several years, and then lately I've been playing perhaps 1 game/month. I won't switch to Civ 5 so this is all I have left :/
I really want to thank Karadoc for this mod, it breathed at least another 6 months of life into my Civ gaming, but all good things must come to an end I suppose. Still, some balance changes could possibly give me some more playing time.

It's just things like samurai, praets, even jaguars, and gardens and cothons are good enough to impact the game and fun to play, while things like shale plants, assembly plants, duns, and cossacks are lame, broken, and boring.
 
I would like to see some major balance adjustments. There are so many units and buildings in the game that are woefully imbalanced. As it is, I'm already pretty much bored of Civ 4. I used to average 2 games/week for the first year or so after BTS, and that dropped to 1 game/week for the last several years, and then lately I've been playing perhaps 1 game/month. I won't switch to Civ 5 so this is all I have left :/
I really want to thank Karadoc for this mod, it breathed at least another 6 months of life into my Civ gaming, but all good things must come to an end I suppose. Still, some balance changes could possibly give me some more playing time.

It's just things like samurai, praets, even jaguars, and gardens and cothons are good enough to impact the game and fun to play, while things like shale plants, assembly plants, duns, and cossacks are lame, broken, and boring.

I guess we could start a new mod or collection of rebalancing tweaks, which can improve gameplay. K-mod has basic philosophy of not changing the gameplay much and is one of the reasons is a standard for future modding. May be karadok himself could start such fork of k-mod.
 
I suppose we could start such a thing ourselves. It would be quite the undertaking. I've tried to dabble in modding but failed miserably when I tried to edit the XML. I'd be happy to dis USS balance changes, however. I'm not really looking to add new things to the game but to balance what's already there, for now.
 
I was thinking of making my own mod to bring more fun and better balance into the game for the deity level, but don't have the time to do so. So here are my ideas, see what you think! I've tried to focus on minor things that have big effects. (I nerfed mounted a bit because at the moment libbing cuirassiers and cavalry is usually the best tectic on the highest levels and should be brought in line imho).

Spoiler :
Rebalancing to extend attack windows:

• Slightly slower base tech rate from classical era techs onwards for both player and AI. (Increase base costs of classical techs onwards by a consistent amount, say 10%).
• To compensate for slower base tech pace – increase the bonus to teching towards techs already known by others by a comparable amount. This should keep the tech situation a little more even between players than at present.
• Reduce cost of Archery tech to 40 at noble, same cost as hunting. Gives easier early defence for the human, no effect on AI who starts with it.
• Unit upgrades – boost to help player/encourage retaining and upgrading veterans. Upgrade formula takes experience into account, so unit upgrades become cheaper the more experience the unit has. Units above level 4 also no longer drop down to 10 exp on upgrading.
• Enforce limit on number of settled gg’s per city. This may be necessary if we have cheaper unit upgrades with higher experience, to prevent new units built in a multi-settled gg city becoming too cheap to instantly upgrade without earning field experience. Also encourages players to attach gg's, which is more beneficial anyway (see below).
• Make siege more survivable - give all siege a base 25% withdrawal rate. Idea is higher survivability on attacking but do the same damage to keep balance. This means attacker needs to replenish siege less, and so can concentrate on producing units instead. And defender even more likely to use siege defensively.

General rebalancing:

• I’d want to nerf the slavery whip a little bit. It shouldn’t be a players primary source of hammers the whole way through the game! So nerf instead by making 2 pop whip = 2 unhappy, 3 pop = 3 unhappy etc. And also, nerf via moving 20% of granary food storing to walls/castle, see below. Sacrifical Altar would now become more powerful as it has a bigger effect. Maybe take it one step further and lower hammer output from each pop whip. But reducing hammer output to 20 or 25h would require much rebalancing of all build costs, a lot of work.
• To compensate for less whipping by the player, reduce the AI bonus on building things a bit.
• On the other hand, reduce wonder/zero hammer invested whip penalty. Whipping now much more tactically important, whipping wonders/defenders encouraged.
• Nerf wonder fail gold (back down to 50% of hammers invested) to prevent failing wonders beating equivalent wealth building.
• Boost attached gg units: +1 strength promo at end of combat/drill line. (Similar to heroic strength promotion in FFH).
• Boost pillage income slightly: farms, plantations, windmills to same output as mines. To encourage mounted pillaging (especially if mounted receive commando as outlined below).
• Nerf cheesy espionage multipliers (lower cultural + religious percentage bonuses)
• Nerf state religion switch cheese (increase delay from 5 to 10 turns)
• Improve serfdom somehow

Unit rebalancing:

• Boost muskets – 10str, 90 hammers (rebalance uu’s a little to compensate – +15% bonuses for jan, 1fs+drill1 but no drill2 for oromo, leave musketeers). This makes drafting stronger too.
• Boost scouts/explorers - can attack (allows scout worker steal), explorers start with medic 1.
• Boost landsknecht – 8str, 50% bonuses vs cav and melee. (Unit basically becomes a cheaper mace, with pike bonus vs mounted, but can't get city raider promos).
• Boost Ballista elephant - first strikes?
• Nerf quecha – 50% bonus vs archers
• Rebalance praetorians – nerf to 40h 7str with 10% city attack.
• Or, more fun idea – praetorians strength stays same but moves to become a new Roman unique unit that requires monarchy and iron, and regains swordy 10% city attack bonus. Base Roman sword unique unit with IW is now named legionnaire, 40h 7str with 10% city attack, upgradable to praetorian for free at level 4 and above.
• Warriors upgrade to archers/warriors unbuildable after archery (to prevent vassal gift cheese/nerf cheap HR garrisons).
• Boost marine – starts with commando.
• Rebalance mounted units: all mounted units have –20% city attack/defense, but start with commando promo. Makes unrealistic mounted rushes harder, but pillaging and razing unguarded cities easier. Players also now have to minimse/defend road networks to prevent pillaging or capture raids. Commando promo treats railroads as roads to keep cavalry in check in industrial era.

Buildings:

• Boost walls/dun - stores 10% food on growth
• Boost castle/citadel - stores 10% food on growth, obsoletes with corporation
• Nerf granary - stores 30% food on growth, extra 10% with corporation, 10% with rifling so back up to 50% when walls and castle obsolete
• Boost forum +50% gpp
• Boost industrial plant: builds +100% faster with coal, normal slots, 1 free engineer
• Boost stele: hard to balance for creative Zara! Maybe +25% trade route yield?
• Boost Customs House/Feitoria: Additional 1 trade route

Less developed/more controversial/ big change ideas:

• Boost protective trait: all units +10% strength inside own borders (like homeland trait in FFH), remove free city defender 1 promo, retain free drill 1 promo.
• ‘Dismount’ ability for cavalry. Takes 1 turn. Lose 1 movement, lose penalty to attacking city, and lose susceptibility to spears/pikes/elephants. Would be very hard to implement though as AI wouldn;t know when to use it/ would use it all the time.
• Leadership promo has an extra effect which allows units in gg’s stack to upgrade in neutral/enemy territory.
• Reduce AI ability/willingness to tech trade with player AND each other, by making all AIs only trade at pleased. Harder for player to catch up by tech brokering after alpha, but also harder for AI trading whores to run away. This should also lessen inter AI war bribes.

 
Hey in the interests of civility, can we limit our discussions to a few things at a time, please? There's no way to address every single one of your ideas without taking 30-60 min to go through them all.
I'll address a few:
I agree with the forum boost on one hand, but the Romans are already a top tier civ. If we were to nerf the praet as you suggest then the forum change would be acceptable.
Agreed customs house needs a buff, yours is fine
I strongly disagree with capping number of GGs in a city
Not sure about your tech rate idea, I don't see why that would be a good thing.

Now let me add a few suggestions of my own. I do think that UU's and UB's are not currently balanced, but that is a long list, so I'll just mention a couple of changes that I think would greatly benefit the game.
As it is right now collateral damage is overwhelming. Once catapults show up, all future wars are won with collateral. In fact ground wars are basically decided by siege, and I find this annoying. It takes the fun out of the game because it matters not whether you're attacking with maces or rifles, as long as you have cannons, for example. Your siege weapon is more important than anything else, and so I would nerf siege. I'd do so by nerfing the amount of collateral damage that can be afflicted upon units. I'd reduce the number of units affected and the amount of damage they take.
And this ties into my second point - the protective trait (and drill). I would buff the drill promotion line by making the collateral damage reduction start with drill 1. It could be 15, 30, 45, 60 for example, or even 20, 40, 60, 80. This would also have the effect of being a buff for the protective trait, which I think would be a very good thing.

By making this change what would happen is that siege weapons wouldn't completely dominate all wars all the time, as they do now. The way the game is now, you could have rifles and cavalry, and I could have a mishmash of muskets, knights, and maces. As long as I had more cannons than you, I'd probably win the fight, which is ridiculous. With these changes non-siege units would be important again.

One thing I would consider is nerfing siege units by lowering their strength, and then giving them withdraw chance (as you suggested). In fact, that could work out very well. Then siege wouldn't do as much collateral damage but you wouldn't be losing so many in each battle. I preferred the siege from Civ 3 where you would bombard the tile and damage enemy units. The problem, I think, was the AI didn't know how to use it. I'd be happy with siege units in Civ 4 basically having a very high withdraw chance to effectively perform the same function, but the siege could be nerfed in strength and bombardment power, and its cost could be increased.
 
@TiglathPileser, there are a few things in your post which suggest to me that you haven't been playing K-Mod.

(here are a few things which stood out:)
Spoiler :
  • "more fun [...] for the deity level". – Have you tried deity level on K-Mod? It's what some might describe as a roflstomp, where the human player is the one getting stomped. -- I know some people like a challenge and don't mind losing; but I wouldn't expect anyone to play deity as their standard K-Mod difficulty.
  • "Improve serfdom somehow" – Serfdom in K-Mod is actually pretty good. It's still situational, but it's certainly viable.
  • "Boost Ballista elephant - first strikes?" – Ballista elephants already get 1 first strike in K-Mod.

Is your post actually meant to be a list of suggestions for K-Mod, or are you just listing things you might do in a completely unrelated mod?
 
@TiglathPileser, there are a few things in your post which suggest to me that you haven't been playing K-Mod.

(here are a few things which stood out:)
Spoiler :
  • "more fun [...] for the deity level". – Have you tried deity level on K-Mod? It's what some might describe as a roflstomp, where the human player is the one getting stomped. -- I know some people like a challenge and don't mind losing; but I wouldn't expect anyone to play deity as their standard K-Mod difficulty.
  • "Improve serfdom somehow" – Serfdom in K-Mod is actually pretty good. It's still situational, but it's certainly viable.
  • "Boost Ballista elephant - first strikes?" – Ballista elephants already get 1 first strike in K-Mod.

Is your post actually meant to be a list of suggestions for K-Mod, or are you just listing things you might do in a completely unrelated mod?

I should explain, those were all the ideas for my own standalone balance mod of bts (and I was referring to vanilla deity in my first sentence, only tried kmod on immortal!). I dont have the time to make that mod now, but I saw you guys were discussing further gameplay changes to balance K mod (the mod with the best AI/base gameplay imho), and thought I'd throw some of the individual ideas out there for you to pick from. I believe they all have merit and would love a few to be included in any future k mod. Copy pasting the entire list was probably a bad way to introduce them though...

If we're discussing a few things at a time, I agree siege is a good place to start. Units should do more heavy lifting once siege knocks the cultural bonuses off and does a bit of collateral.
 
Karadoc, if there was a "K-mod testing" then community consensus could encourage or discourage pushing changes to K-mod. This might be efficient and if it's too much of a bother, it obviously is a no-go. But I need to frequent creation and customization before I talk too big and out of my own place.
 
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