Ideas to Districts, Trade Routes and GpT

[historix69]

Just some ideas :

- Increase min distance between cities from 3 to 4 tiles to avoid cities blocking each others grow and allow cities to grow bigger
- Make population grow easier, e.g. bonus for fresh water, availability of different food resources
- Add all the Level 1 - buildings from districts to city center so that small cities have access to limited amount of science, culture, faith, military, ...
- Introduce districts at population of 10 instead of pop 1
- A district requires its Level 1 building in city center.
- All districts of a city must connect to the city center or another district of the city so that the city is not split and is visible as a unit. (Exception : Military Camp)
- Placing a district will culture-bomb "neutral" tiles around it.
- Each district should be able to build/upgrade his own (city) walls for protection (similar to camp now).
- Districts count as roads for the city owner -> 0,5 movement costs, bridges.
- Only worked resources will give yield and count for trade, happiness or as strategic resources.
- Only worked districts will give yield, bonus to the city and GPP (Great Person Points)
- All districts cost upkeep.

- No more flat GpT ...
- The market building (now in city center) will allow a trade-route for the city. (fixed to city)
- The Trade Route will start with limited range and maybe 2 stations and increase to large distance with more (but limited number of) stations (cities with markets) depending on trade network, tech and economic district.
- The Trade Route will collect a city income based on the number and type of resources and districts/wonders/buildings available in the cities it visits, including food, production, culture, faith, science, gold, happyness, ... (maybe 0.1 yield per ressource which can sum up to high yields when multiple instances of a resource are available along the trade-route. (with boni for resources which are not available in home town))
- Market / Economic district will also receive a similar income from all other trade routes passing through the city itself, e.g. 10% - 20% of their trade-route value which also can sum up.
- Gold income from trade will be calculated based on Gold yield (value) and number of all resources being produced in the city and variety of resources coming to the city via trade (e.g. maybe 10 different resources from trade = 10 GpT),
- Variety of luxuries from city + trade = adds to basic happiness in the city
- Variety of food from city + trade = basic health bonus in the city (maybe +5% per different resource), lowers the amount of food needed to grow population
- Variety of strategic resources from city + trade = basic production bonus in the city (maybe +5% per different resource)
- Faith, Science, Culture from Trade stimulate local specialists and give limited bonus of +5% to +25% to respective local production of F., S., C.
- The specialists working in the Economic district will provide a bonus of maybe 25% - 50% - 100% each on income from trade routes and the city's Gold tile yields depending on tech-level and economic buildings.
Adjacency bonus will be an additional % bonus to revenue, e.g. instead of 4 Gold now +20% city income.

- Production Districts
- No yield without specialists
- Specialists have production yields according to the district's adjacency value + yield of the district and buildings in the district, e.g. when a district has +4 adjacency bonus +6 building yield + 2 x 2 specialists' yield (sum 14), each specialist would now yield +7.
- Specialists will also provide a +25% production bonus for their specific profession, e.g. 2 specialists in shipyard would add some flat production and +50% to the city's production when building ships or doing a Great Admiral project.

Edit :
Examples for Trade :
- A City X with no fish ressource to work sends a trader on a route to cities A-B-C-D where the trader "collects" (among other goods) 5 units of fish (from 5 worked resources of fish) which count as 0,5 fish (0,1 per ressource). City X has an economic center with 2 specialists which gives 100% bonus resulting in 1 fish from the trade-route which gives +1 food to the city, +1 Gold revenue, a health bonus and adds the 1 fish to (secondary) market for other trade routes. City Y with no fish ressource to work sends a trader on a route to city X and gets 0,1 fish from (secondary) market spreading the fish health bonus to City Y, too ...
- City X works 3 resources of iron and sends a trader on a route to cities A-B-C-D where he adds 0,3 iron to each market for 0,3 Gold revenue when the city does not have an iron resource. If city X has an Economic district with 2 specialists, the revenue is doubled and may add up to 2.4 Gold (4 x 0.3 x 2). The cities A, B, C, D get an iron production bonus (maybe +5% to city production), 0.3 production (0.6 production when they have an Economic district worked by 2 specialists) and 0.3 Gold (0.6 Gold) as market tax income.
- An early civ like Rome might conquer / settle a couple of cities with variety of resources, build markets and traders there, send all the traders to Rome to give Rome lots of extra food + boni through the variety of resources now available on Rome's market. Rome will prosper and grow quickly. In return the trade routes will also bring the variety from Rome's market to their home city giving huge boni to growth, production, happiness, etc., too.

Note :
2nd market = a city offers resources aquired by trade-routes in sufficient quantity on its own market to other trade-routes
Calculating the 2nd market effect on trade might be a little bit tricky but should be possible by either calculating trade in several iterations each turn or by simply using for each city stored 2nd market data from the previous turn for current turn's trade calculation.

Edit :
- My ideas to trade routes are inspired by Civ 4 BtS (food-resources = health, corporations) and also Civ 5 BNW (trade routes) as well as some historical trade simulation games (Trade Empires, Patrician, Caesar, Anno, ...) and some books about economic history.

 

[Leyrann]

Firaxis hire this man.

 

[historix69]

Thanks

I really wonder why Firaxis does not use more of their good ideas from Civ 4 BtS (food-resources = health, corporations) and Civ 5 BNW (trade routes, bonus) in Civ 6.
Too bad that Civ 5 BNW trade routes were hard coded so community could not tinker with this feature ...

 

[Erzherzog]

I wanted to post some ideas of my own concerning trade and resources and stumbled on this thread... Great work, historix69, you've put much thought into this! Since many of my own overlap with yours, I am just going to expand/comment on what you already wrote.

Just some ideas :

- Increase min distance between cities from 3 to 4 tiles to avoid cities blocking each others grow and allow cities to grow bigger
- Make population grow easier, e.g. bonus for fresh water, availability of different food resources
- Add all the Level 1 - buildings from districts to city center so that small cities have access to limited amount of science, culture, faith, military, ...
- Introduce districts at population of 10 instead of pop 1
- A district requires its Level 1 building in city center.
- All districts of a city must connect to the city center or another district of the city so that the city is not split and is visible as a unit. (Exception : Military Camp)
- Placing a district will culture-bomb "neutral" tiles around it.
- Each district should be able to build/upgrade his own (city) walls for protection (similar to camp now).
- Districts count as roads for the city owner -> 0,5 movement costs, bridges.
- Only worked resources will give yield and count for trade, happiness or as strategic resources.
- Only worked districts will give yield, bonus to the city and GPP (Great Person Points)
- All districts cost upkeep.

- AI has a tendency to cram cities (and to forward settle on the other side as well). I was thinking that instead of min distance they could implement a mechanic which checks for a min city tiles available for a particular settling plot (e.g. min=7-8), and min available food, as a decision thresholds if settling there will be allowed. I would also restore the distance from capital penalty, except maybe for England, to prevent Gandhi settling his second city like 30+ tiles away from capital. I mean, when did such a thing ever happen in history?? Sure, when a Civ gets enough amenities then go ahead colonize Terra incognita all you like.
- I actually like the housing, and other growth-limiting mechanics, since city growth can quickly become tumor-like when all bonuses add-up. I would rather start low (historically accurate!) and augment it via resource diversity (see further below)
- reasonable. As you said later on Lvl1 buildings can serve as prerequisites for districts. That makes much more sense in terms of development.
- well, 10 or maybe already 5...
- exactly.
- second that. Also, I would remove the district/resource adjacency requirements for wonders and leave just the existence of a district as a prerequisite and specific resources as production modifier (like in Civ3 I think, Copper +33% production toward Colossus, Stone toward Stonehenge, Pyramids...). Also, Wonders would provide specific adjacent/no adjacent bonuses to districts.
- dunno, that sounds a bit OP to me
- or just make the base district non-pillageable after the city has built the walls, district buildings themselves still vulnerable to pillage
- they are just parts of the city, and if they'd have to be continuous it would make sense for them to be connected to city with roads/streets
- makes sense as a nerf to the now very powerful districts, though I'd leave strategic resources out. Imagine, you start building your Swordsman, then un-work the Iron, so can you proceed with the production or not? I would add Era-specific unit production bonuses, say, +25% production for Spearman in a city with copper (worked or imported via trade).
- indeed, maybe just use the number of specialists as a multiplier to calculate the yield, zero specialists = zero yield.
- sure, no free lunch.

- No more flat GpT ...
- The market building (now in city center) will allow a trade-route for the city. (fixed to city)
- The Trade Route will start with limited range and maybe 2 stations and increase to large distance with more (but limited number of) stations (cities with markets) depending on trade network, tech and economic district.
- The Trade Route will collect a city income based on the number and type of resources and districts/wonders/buildings available in the cities it visits, including food, production, culture, faith, science, gold, happyness, ... (maybe 0.1 yield per ressource which can sum up to high yields when multiple instances of a resource are available along the trade-route. (with boni for resources which are not available in home town))
- Market / Economic district will also receive a similar income from all other trade routes passing through the city itself, e.g. 10% - 20% of their trade-route value which also can sum up.
- Gold income from trade will be calculated based on Gold yield (value) and number of all resources being produced in the city and variety of resources coming to the city via trade (e.g. maybe 10 different resources from trade = 10 GpT),
- Variety of luxuries from city + trade = adds to basic happiness in the city
- Variety of food from city + trade = basic health bonus in the city (maybe +5% per different resource), lowers the amount of food needed to grow population
- Variety of strategic resources from city + trade = basic production bonus in the city (maybe +5% per different resource)
- Faith, Science, Culture from Trade stimulate local specialists and give limited bonus of +5% to +25% to respective local production of F., S., C.
- The specialists working in the Economic district will provide a bonus of maybe 25% - 50% - 100% each on income from trade routes and the city's Gold tile yields depending on tech-level and economic buildings.
Adjacency bonus will be an additional % bonus to revenue, e.g. instead of 4 Gold now +20% city income.

- or leave just a tiny amount to get the wheels rolling
- yes. perhaps marketplaces grant a free fixed traders, but cost more to build (like marketplace+trader).
- I like the Trade post dynamics as they are, the only thing I would add is the caravansary building as a Commercial hub building which acts as a universal trade post, adds some amount of gold and amenities per trade route passing for the owner and greatly extends trade radius and adds some benefits (gold? or not?) for the passing traders. It can be made a national wonder, and/or limited to let's say 3 builds per nation, and/or additional instance unlocked further down the civics tree.
- I was thinking that, too. E.g. 0.1 food for each fish, wheat, rice etc., 0,1 production for each stone, copper, iron... an so on. And 2x that of it if the city doesn't have the resource. This would make trade inherently more important and would add more diversity. It would need extensive testing to balance the bonus yields, though.
- yes, this one I meant through caravansaries, but perhaps one can also do without them.
- yes, this must be balanced out carefully
- exactly. ***I always wanted to take the luxury resource trade away from diplomacy and into trade where it belongs. The problem with diplomacy is that the luxuries had already been traded away between AI players before the human player got the chance to negotiate. The trade routs would now supply the nation with luxuries and amenities which can then be distributed via existing mechanic. I'd leave the strategic resource trading to diplomacy though.***
- I personally liked the health mechanic in Civ4 (being a healthcare worker myself, perhaps). housing doesn't catch it's effects completely
- not just strategic, but production-based bonus resources too.
- yes.
- yes, as a sort of multiplier, like I said earlier
- sometimes I think I would rather ditch most of the adjacency effects altogether cause it annoys when you have to make silly either/or decisions (put the Campus on a mountain side but than not have space for the Great Library / Oxford cause the horses occupy the only flat adjacent tile), but then, geography is important and should be let play a significant role in city planing. Maybe it would be a good compromise to make districts prerequisites but no adjacency requirements for wonders and make their adjacency bonuses percentual as you suggested.

- Production Districts
- No yield without specialists
- Specialists have production yields according to the district's adjacency value + yield of the district and buildings in the district, e.g. when a district has +4 adjacency bonus +6 building yield + 2 x 2 specialists' yield (sum 14), each specialist would now yield +7.
- Specialists will also provide a +25% production bonus for their specific profession, e.g. 2 specialists in shipyard would add some flat production and +50% to the city's production when building ships or doing a Great Admiral project.

- yes, it's the workers, not the factories themselves, that make production and value! We must and shall give the power back to the worker class (oops)!
- good idea the specific professional bonuses

Examples for Trade :
- A City X with no fish ressource to work sends a trader on a route to cities A-B-C-D where the trader "collects" (among other goods) 5 units of fish (from 5 worked resources of fish) which count as 0,5 fish (0,1 per ressource). City X has an economic center with 2 specialists which gives 100% bonus resulting in 1 fish from the trade-route which gives +1 food to the city, +1 Gold revenue, a health bonus and adds the 1 fish to (secondary) market for other trade routes. City Y with no fish ressource to work sends a trader on a route to city X and gets 0,1 fish from (secondary) market spreading the fish health bonus to City Y, too ...
- City X works 3 resources of iron and sends a trader on a route to cities A-B-C-D where he adds 0,3 iron to each market for 0,3 Gold revenue when the city does not have an iron resource. If city X has an Economic district with 2 specialists, the revenue is doubled and may add up to 2.4 Gold (4 x 0.3 x 2). The cities A, B, C, D get an iron production bonus (maybe +5% to city production), 0.3 production (0.6 production when they have an Economic district worked by 2 specialists) and 0.3 Gold (0.6 Gold) as market tax income.
- An early civ like Rome might conquer / settle a couple of cities with variety of resources, build markets and traders there, send all the traders to Rome to give Rome lots of extra food + boni through the variety of resources now available on Rome's market. Rome will prosper and grow quickly. In return the trade routes will also bring the variety from Rome's market to their home city giving huge boni to growth, production, happiness, etc., too.

- and after the city get's its 1.0 Fish from trade it receives only 0,1 Food bonus from it. It would be an exciting cosmetic to be able to see the origins of the bonuses, e.g. "+0,5 Food from Fish imports", or "+1.0 Food from 5 trade imports of Fish" or something like that. Same for luxury resources, they can then be traded further (see below).
- I'd be careful with the strategic resources. The production bonuses to export/import are fine, but I would leave the resource trading to diplomacy to have more control. You don't want your Uranium be traded on free market, do you?
- at this point the developers limited the domestic trade bonuses to the origin city. I would flip that, so that the receiving city gets the food/production bonuses (flat+resource-based), and the sending city gets luxuries/amenities/resource-based food&production, but no net gold for domestic trade.

Note :
2nd market = a city offers resources aquired by trade-routes in sufficient quantity on its own market to other trade-routes
Calculating the 2nd market effect on trade might be a little bit tricky but should be possible by either calculating trade in several iterations each turn or by simply using for each city stored 2nd market data from the previous turn for current turn's trade calculation.

-this makes sense historically (Silk trade from Persia, Spices from Arabia/Zanzibar etc.), but it could perhaps be easier implemented using my luxury trade through trade routs, instead of through diplomacy. It's passive, doesn't require that much micromanagement and can be controlled through additional percentual modifiers.

Edit :
- My ideas to trade routes are inspired by Civ 4 BtS (food-resources = health, corporations) and also Civ 5 BNW (trade routes) as well as some historical trade simulation games (Trade Empires, Patrician, Caesar, Anno, ...) and some books about economic history.

-good sources! great thoughts! I can only second what Leyrann said: "Firaxis hire this guy!"

One more thought...

I really find astounding how much space on the forum is given to threads about new civs/leaders and how little attention was paid to the core game mechanics. Seems people are all into "Wow, make a new Civilization of RANDOM_PACIFIC_ISLAND" (no disrespect intended, honestly!). But IMHO all the variety provided by new Civ special units/buildings, agendas, graphics etc. doesn't add anything to gameplay in comparison to a small but meaningful change to game mechanics. All that is just a shell, shiny, glittery but without substance.

It' a pity that these valuable ideas will never receive that much attention in the community.