Identical Islands please!

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Gewaltloser, Nov 13, 2007.

  1. Gewaltloser

    Gewaltloser Chieftain

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    I have been playing a lot of multiplayer games in Civ4 BTS. My preferred setting is Islands (one per player) because I don’t like the early wars.

    But even when you have "balanced" settings, the difference of starting positions and islands in general can be huge. It’s far from being balanced. Sometimes you have 4 food resources, then none. One has half the island desert or jungle, the other rivers. A player who has gold/gems will have a much better techrate than others without. Often also the size of the islands is very different (on tiny Islands 5 Cities possible vs. 8 cities possible etc.). The list could go on for a while...

    I think it would be really cool to have an option "identical islands". Every player would have exactly the same island with the same resources and start on the same spot of his respective island. Then you could see - wow while I have a 12 capital, my neighbour has it at size 20...

    Obviously that would not be realistic - but it doesn’t have to be for me. When you play competition / multiplayer I always prefer settings as equal as possible. The identical Island option would obviously be best for this.

    Im looking here for people who see things the same way. Maybe if we are a lot of people we could find a way to make it possible in one of the next patches.
     
  2. SlightlyMad

    SlightlyMad Prince

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    I don't MP much myself (well, at all really), but I wrote the Hemispheres script specifically to address a similar suggestion and avid MPer made to me.

    If you play with 4 or 6 continents, you'll get a pretty balanced map, with just enough variety to be interesting. It splits the map into equal quadrants (or sextants I suppos, for 6 continents), above and below the equator. This means you won't get much jungle or tundra, as you'll have ocean above and below each continent, and each will have roughly the same general shape and landmass.

    Playing with 2 or 3 continents, of course provides much more variety and is less likely to be balanced.
     
  3. Gypsy1220

    Gypsy1220 Chieftain

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    If all the islands are the same, would that not take some of the challenge out of the game? If they are all the same, you would have at least 1 of every luxury, food and strategic resources on your island. That would make the game too simple...you wouldn't have unhappy and/or unhealthy cities so no wars to take needed resources. I guess it would be okay if you are going for diplo/culture/spacerace wins...but seems like it wouldn't be very challenging.
     
  4. Steiner-Davion

    Steiner-Davion Warlord

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    But it could help decide who is the better player.
     
  5. maddogmark25

    maddogmark25 Chieftain

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    not really...

    the whole point is using what you have at your disposal to grow your empire, while taking over other empires for better land that you covet, or for resources

    everyones starting with the same resources, and the same land, there would be no point to diplomacy or wars, or trading, which would then decrease commerce, no point to building a military, no point to spread a religion, no point to start a corporation, no point to even meet with other civs, because if everyone has the exact same starting point, what will diplomacy and war get you?

    it proves who is the better player when you can adjust your strategy to what your starting position is, and still win
     
  6. Cytral

    Cytral Warlord

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    wasn't there in civ3 the option to have your map mirrored?
     
  7. Gewaltloser

    Gewaltloser Chieftain

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    I disagree a lot with this post.

    WARS: There will still be surely a lot of wars with everyone on his identical island. The one that conquers another island will go ahead in tech / military units etc. so there is still a lot of interest... The difference is just that when you have a war - you will just not be behind in tech because of the starting island and his resources. These excuses would be gone.

    TRADING: Also trading is still interesting. You still can trade gold for food if a player has an expansive civ etc.

    RELIGION: Religion wouldn’t be affected at all by this setting. It has the same uses as in every game. You should spread it on your and on the other islands for your benefit.

    RECOURCES AND ADAPTATION: You shouldn’t have all the resources on your island. If there is no stone/gold this is no problem since no one will have stone/gold. I think there are just a few resources you really need (oil) and others that just help speed up things. The speed up ones shouldn’t be always there. So in every game you would obviously also have to adapt your strategy.

    A player that even with bad terrain can win a game is by far a better player – that’s very clear. But that’s not the point. It gets especially interesting when players with similar quality play a game. And then it’s more often than you think decided by terrain.
    Besides it would for me just be very interesting to see other people’s strategies with the same conditions as you have. This way you can learn a lot about which strategies are working better than others.

    You don’t seem to see the concept of multiplayer fairness. I know there are a lot of players that like standard resources, random events, tech trading and huts etc. and I respect that. But I see that there are also a great number of people that happily turn these unbalancing things off. In this spirit it would only be consequent to go for an identical island option.
     
  8. Gypsy1220

    Gypsy1220 Chieftain

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    If that is the reason that you would like all land to be identical, then you should participate in the Game Of the Month contest...Everyone that plays starts at the same spot and does not diminish the rest of the game by having everyone with (or without) the same resources...
     
  9. Artie

    Artie Chieftain

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    I'd prefer similar islands to identical. No one should have all of the resources but more everyone has a balanced set. Or you could have everyone with the same resources but not all of them and the rest scattered about on smaller islands. Then again you could be like me and just lost three games by dang barbarian archer hordes.
     
  10. occam

    occam Warlord

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    That is so far from qualifying as proving something I cringed when I read it. Got science?

    First of all, the starting positions are still unknown and random, so flexibility is still tested under identical starts.

    It also further produces questions like: is it better to win with a phenomenal start or come in second with the worst start?

    And then your whole multi-player circle of friends is breaking down into disputes that try to measure difficulty of starting position. You had stone and elephants! No, you had iron! So what, I wasn't Rome!

    In fact, people begin to covet bad starts, right?

    In summary, unless you have many repetitions and a statistical system for weighting starts, identical starts is by far the best.

    - O
     
  11. Gewaltloser

    Gewaltloser Chieftain

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    Game of the month contest looks like an interesting idea (Thx for the tip). But I prefer to play multiplayer games.
     
  12. magicalsushi

    magicalsushi Prince

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    All the starting islands need to be the same, so let's have a larger central island with no-one starting on it, and some resources on there that aren't available on the starting islands. For maximum fairness, it'd need to have rotational symmetry and be equidistant from each island; your level of pedantry may vary...
     
  13. magicalsushi

    magicalsushi Prince

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    Also, to encourage resource trading, remember that some resources have identical features. Wheat and corn, clam and crab, and perhaps some others I've forgotten. If there are an even number of players, you could give half of them wheat and half of them corn, on the same tile. This encourages trading but doesn't give anyone an unfair advantage.
     
  14. Gewaltloser

    Gewaltloser Chieftain

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    Has anyone an idea how to transfer the identical island wish to Firaxis. I'd really like they noticed. Should be too hard to include it...
     
  15. gunter

    gunter King

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    Bts has an idiosyncrasy against the " equal opportunities " at all. :rolleyes:

    In single player f.i. the human player always starts in a worst situation than other AI opponents , I assume the MP section is unbalanced as well.
     
  16. Mesix

    Mesix The Allfather

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    I'll have to try out the Hemispheres setting. Lately I have been playing either Fractal or Terra. Hemispheres might be an interesting option for my next multiplayer game.
     
  17. Öjevind Lång

    Öjevind Lång Deity

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    Identical starts would rather take the excitement out of the game for those who desire something more stimulating than a gloridifed version of tic-tac-toe.
     
  18. kazapp

    kazapp Emperor

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    Ifyou want identical islands, then it's not a map script you're after - it's a saved game.

    The whole point of running a map script is the random results.
     
  19. occam

    occam Warlord

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    The template for the identical islands would ideally still be random.
     
  20. Colossian

    Colossian Prince

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    @Gewaltloser

    All island players think like u in MP. Unfornately this forum is for Single-Mode-Players. A lot of members are SMP. They are not interested in your idea and suggestions. I'm one of MP. Try "Fair Island" map script. It's not perfect but not bad at all. Remenber! all of SMP are noobs in point of view of MP.
     

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