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Ideology Civics

Discussion in 'RoM Modmods' started by Afforess, Jul 1, 2009.

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Ideology civics, a good idea?

  1. Yes, they are.

    39 vote(s)
    60.9%
  2. Yes, with some changes

    9 vote(s)
    14.1%
  3. Maybe; I'll wait and see.

    11 vote(s)
    17.2%
  4. No, too much added complexity and unneccesary.

    5 vote(s)
    7.8%
  1. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

    Joined:
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    I felt that Rise of Mankind lacked ways to express a government's ideology. There were some civics, such as "Liberal" and "Socialized" but they represented largely different concepts than what I sought. So I made my own; the full list of civics is below. Ideology civics will differ from other civics in that players will begin with no ideology available or selected, and have to research the appropriate techs to unlock them.

    Ideology Civics:
    Spoiler :
    • Objectivism (No Upkeep)
      +2 unhealthiness
      +2 Unhappiness in largest cities
      -30% city maintenance
      -30% corporation costs
      +10 free military units
      Corporation Buildings give +2 happy each
      +2 Trade routes
      Requires Communism

    • Individualism (Low Upkeep)
      +1 Unhealthiness
      +1 Unhappiness in largest cities
      -20% city maintenance
      +5 free military units
      -20% corporation costs
      Corporation Buildings give +1 happy each
      +1 Trade route
      Requires Constitution

    • Capitalism (Low Upkeep)
      -10% city maintenance
      -10% corporation costs
      Requires Currency

    • Centrism (Medium Upkeep)
      +3 happiness in largest cities
      Requires Political Philosophy

    • Egalitarianism (Medium Upkeep)
      +10% culture
      +10% city maintenance
      +10% corporation maintenance
      +1 Happiness in largest cities
      +1 Free Specialist
      Requires Currency

    • Progressivism (High Upkeep)
      +1 Healthiness
      +2 Happiness in largest cities
      +20% Culture
      +1 gold military unit support cost
      +20% city maintenance
      +20% corporation maintenance
      Broadcast Tower give +1 happiness
      +2 Free Specialist
      Requires Constitution

    • Socialism (Astronomical* Upkeep)
      +30% culture
      +1 Happiness in largest cities
      +1 military unit support cost
      +30% city maintenance
      +30% corporation maintenance
      +2 healthiness
      Hospitals provide extra 1 unhappiness, extra 2 healthiness
      Broadcast Tower give +2 happiness
      Corporation Buildings give +1 unhappy each
      +3 Free Specialist
      Specialists generate one extra culture
      Can Draft
      Requires Communism


    * I added Astronomical upkeep to balance Socialism; it's a step up from high.



    Version History: 1.01

    Download Here
     
  2. DRJ

    DRJ Hedonist

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    Good Idea, but by now it's not balanced. The conservative civics have more good modifiers than the social-liberal do. All this +maintance and +war wariness etc, not to talk about the -gold and -espionage of the social side isn't met by the +science and the +health/hapiness IMHO.

    Btw. There are some conservative dumbnuts who feel even happy under Bush, so a little disturbing "argument": why not give ultra-conservatism more happy faces...? ;-)

    As the modifiers are now they simply are not balanced out fair, I think and I wouldn't use them.
     
  3. os79

    os79 Deity

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    I think you should give liberal good espionage points too because of their science leadership.

    The conservatives tend to look over their shoulders as opposed to liberals. that is a correct political science statement, though overgeneralizing. I should know because I'm a history major and took soc sci 101 and 102.

    You can try to code Anarchy thing to be easier for liberals (shorter) and harder for conservatives (longer) as well.
     
  4. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Okay, how do they look now? Ultra conserv gives +5 unhealthy instead of 4, and +2 happy. Conservative gives +1 happy. All the liberals get a culture boost. Also, I mentioned the broadcast tower in liberal and ultra liberal.

    My rational for conservative espionage bonus is that ultra conservatives (like Sean Hannity) have no qualms with waterboarding to "retrieve" information, whereas liberals would.
     
  5. os79

    os79 Deity

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    I meant easier anarchy if it goes forward and for greater humanity "good".

    Also, I protest that liberals can be fascists. They can not. They can be totalitarians, not fascists. These terms mean two different things :).
     
  6. os79

    os79 Deity

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    Put this way, agreed! *shudder at Bush's years of torture*
     
  7. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Any other changes? I want the civics to be as fair as possible.
     
  8. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    My only problem is that in my form of English conservative = liberal that is the conservative party is the liberal party ie right wing. This is one of the things which has always confused me about that country in the northern hemisphere between Canada and Mexico.
     
  9. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    The current names are mostly placeholders, until I come up with better ones. I hope to avoid this problem.
     
  10. Sarkyn

    Sarkyn Warlord

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    I think there are too many modifiers full stop.

    The current civic screen already takes me a few minutes to work out whether to change civic or not, as there are 5-6 lines per civic of changes, which I think keep in my head while I look at what I'm thinking about changing too.

    It makes the information a player needs to comprehend to make a meaningful choice too much.

    If you add this additional civic as well, the choices must be:

    a) Simple to comprehend
    b) On a clear scale from one end to another.

    See if you can limit yourself to 3 positives and 3 costs for each civic. Thus a total of 6 lines of text to comprehend per civic.

    As a philosophical note - values relating to personal freedom and values relating to big government or small government are not at all aligned in my experience.

    The governments who have the most "hands off, fend for yourself" attitude to healthcare, social provision and government regulation are often also the ones who have the most intrusive attitude to personal liberty.

    As such, it might be wiser to reform the government civics into TWO ideological sliders, rather than simply adding another to the existing one.

    It's a minefield!
     
  11. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Many of the other civics have many many items, but mainly because of building modifiers. I'll see what I can do.

    There's not a really good way to show personal freedom. I'm not going to make civics for freedom either, because it isn't (as) important to how the government operates. Plus, If I go about weakening one side more than the other, no one will ever use it. See? We're all biased.


    This might be cool, but not at all realistic. I'm not going to mess with the existing civics, cause that's Zappara's domain.
     
  12. hiphopin

    hiphopin Warlord

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    Whoah whoah whoah, liberals ideology more scientific than conservative? That's kinda offensive, you should really think about removing the science slider because the only difference between the ideologies science wise in general is conservatives generally are religous, and liberals generally are less inclined to be so. Liberals are generally believing in the theory of evelolution, conservatives do not.

    The gold, culture and espionage sliders however do represent the parties well. But, there is another problem, while it is true in this country liberals are much more against wars than conservatives generally, the +100% and -100% war weariness at the extreme sides is WAY to much, like WAY to much. It sends the message that all the conservatives want is war and all the liberals want to sit back and get destroyed. Europe is very socialist and yet, look at all the wars over there in the past several hundred years that had the peoples support. Honestly the war weariness slider should just be removed, the +10 free units and draft does a good job at showing how conservatives are more accepting of a war should it be neccissary, I would also reccomend removing the + unit support cost for liberals.

    What the heck is the +5 unhealthiness for conservatives and +4 health for liberals in here for? Because the fact that the liberal ideology is pro green, add like .3 health to forrest improvements. Conservatives should get more money on there mining and oil improvements, and thats it, whats the unhealth from? Corporations? Pfft...


    Lol okay, just want to say if you found my comment to be rude, I seriously wasn't. Awesome idea Afforess, if I find anything else that I think should be changed or have more ideas I will be sure to post them here.
     
  13. tmgandscar

    tmgandscar Chieftain

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    I like what you are trying to do, but I think some adjustments are needed since you are basing it on current american concepts which are driven by politics not policy

    1. No war weariness adjustment liberal democracies as well as regimes have started and fought more wars in the 20th century than anyone else ie. USSR, french and US in vietnam, balkans under Clinton, Chinese involvement in Korea etc. the public in general usually supports wars in general as long as they believe you are winning ie vietnam US support for the war was 80% until images from the tet offensive changed public opinion.

    2. I disagree with the health modifiers liberals have been green for less than two decades, conservatives have usually done more history to preserve forests and wetlands as well as curb industry growth usually because they were not aligned with them ie Teddy Roosvelt national park system and Nixon EPA and Clean air act. Conservatives have broken up more monopolies than liberals while liberalism Nationalizes them.

    3. What I was trying to say health, trade, and happiness modifiers needed to have adjustments based on other civic choices ie; Ultra liberal with Intolerant Civ should have -4 happiness, Consertaive health bonus with private, liberal high health bonus with Socialized(universal) health like +4, +2 with socialized

    4. Ideology dictates civics which permits them to thrive or fail

    5. Moderate should be by far the safest to play with, the farther you wish to play on the ideological spectrum the more thought that is required but if you if are good the bonuses are worth it.

    6. Espionage has nothing to do with ideology history has shown us that both liberal and conservative ideologies can use it effectively it depends more on your foriegn policy objectives
    and how much you willing to invest in it. If you look at the best intelligence networks in history they run the political spectrum. Remember Civ takes in to account 8000 years of history.

    7. Science modifiers need to be adjusted Hitler's Germany would be considered Ultra-conservative but their respect was amazing they held tech advantage throughout the whole war until they were overwhelmed by a much larger force and mother nature. Aggresive conservative leaders have usually embraced science for its advantages on the battlefield. In the west it has usually been the driving force behind scientific achievement, that and profit.

    Tell me what you think
     
  14. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Thanks for the many suggestions. I have taken them into consideration, and made changes accordingly. I personally like the idea of certain ideologies having synergestic or negative effects with other civics; I'm just not sure if that's possible without SDK changes.

    I apologize for the brief post, I'm without a computer for the next 5 days. (mobile phone browsers are terrible.) please continue to critique.
     
  15. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    By the way, I think currently maximum amount of civic categories in RoM is set to 9 (RoM has 7). It's defined in Global defines somewhere. In most cases if things go over the defines in global defines the game will get CTDs - so if you are adding several categories, you might have to increase this define, though I can up it by few in next RoM patch as well, since it looks like people are making all kinds of modmods for RoM now :)
     
  16. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Thanks, zappara. 13 should probably be enough, as I have no further civic ideas after this, but I wouldn't want to stifle others. A side question, is it possible to rearrange the order civics appear modularly, it bugs me that my military civics come after the futuristic ones. If not, it's not a big issue.
     
  17. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Updated. Beta is available for playtesting. Feedback is appreciated.
     
  18. CivEikka

    CivEikka Warlord

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    I think that there should be ideologies that affect diplomacy. Rightwing ideologies get +1 diplomacy points (could depend for something too) for every civ that has the same ideology, and -1 diplomacy points for every civ that has the leftwing ideology.

    Same as with religions, there should be more diplomacy hits (like if you have two holy cities, religion A and B, and your state religion is A and your neighbour have B. But if you are running intolerant, and killing the religion B citizens the minuspoints should grow. And for the leftwing ideologies, they often neglect the religion. Good idea though.
     
  19. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    Jooyo already made that, but it requires SDK changes. The other half of your suggestion would require extensive modding, and I'm not good at anything other than XML. :sad:
     
  20. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    Probably not possible, the game loads first the basic mod files and then adds all modular stuff after them.
     

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