Idon unstan sadam

Originally posted by Comrade Juhon
In 1948 when 'Israel' and 'Palestine' were seperated into different areas, the Palestinians weren't happy. They wanted more land.
Israel has held out against most of the Middle East who HATE THEIR GUTS!!! That's 6million people against 300million people. I'm not having a dig against Muslims (who are lovely people) but their religion is totally wacko!
Has anyone forgotten the verse in the Qur'an that says,"They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level. So choose not friends from them (the disbelievers) till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back then take them and KILL them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.(Surah/Chapter 004 - An-Nisâ. Verse 89)

Doesn't sound like a religion of peace and tolerance, does it? If they are not Muslim, KILL THEM! is basically what the verse is saying. So, if the Palestinians are good Muslims and faithful to the Qur'an, they would have to KILL ALL the Israelis!
The Israelis (as a whole) want peace, prosperity, and stability. The Palestinians (as a whole) want the Israelis to be ANNIHALATED!!!

(As you may have guessed, I don't particularly like hearing the press tell us that 'Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance'. Muslims are PEOPLE of peace and tolerance, but Islam definitely isn't)

On the matter of the final paragraph, it is something that we have gone over before, but I am very much disapproving of and disgusted with the sycophantic historical revisionism that has been doing the rounds: That Islam is a religion that did not attack others, and that the Christians were the first to start religious war against them.
Which conveniently ignores the previous Muslim attempts to invade and conquer Christendom, stopped at Tours in 732 AD.
The discussions on the matter delved into the nature of the religion, and the analysis of it. Quite interesting. Do go digging and find it in the back pages of the forum.
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
Schools that aid peace? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They do! Badly educated people stay poorer and dumber. If you want racial or religious tension to go away, make people earn a good living!

If this concept is strange to you, that only shows that you are rather blind! Sorry to say this so straight out, but I don`t think you try to find a solution to the problem that doesn`t include genocity or slavery of the Palestinians. You sound hatefull and aggressive, and not trying to understand how the conflict came to be or can be solved.

I can understand you - after all everyone in Isreal lives in the constant danger of being blown up by someone he never harmed or even intended to harm, whom he never even knew. Still, try to take a step back! :)
 
Originally posted by Comrade Juhon

The Israelis (as a whole) want peace, prosperity, and stability. The Palestinians (as a whole) want the Israelis to be ANNIHALATED!!!

I think you are overdoing it quite a bit; my GF spent quite some time there and we have a common friend who is an Isreali. Both my GF and this guy gave me the impression that most Palestinias want peace and their land back (that doesn`t mean they want the Israeils homeless, btw, it means 1976 borders!). But when a conflict has gone so long it is not surprising that you find few(er) forgiving people on the loosers side!
 
Originally posted by Killer


They do! Badly educated people stay poorer and dumber. If you want racial or religious tension to go away, make people earn a good living!

If this concept is strange to you, that only shows that you are rather blind! Sorry to say this so straight out, but I don`t think you try to find a solution to the problem that doesn`t include genocity or slavery of the Palestinians. You sound hatefull and aggressive, and not trying to understand how the conflict came to be or can be solved.

I can understand you - after all everyone in Isreal lives in the constant danger of being blown up by someone he never harmed or even intended to harm, whom he never even knew. Still, try to take a step back! :)

I believe my young Israeli friend was referring to the endless curriculum of hate and and anti-Semitic propaganda that is propagated through these "schools". That is what is happening there, certainly not a proper education.
 
Originally posted by Killer


They do! Badly educated people stay poorer and dumber. If you want racial or religious tension to go away, make people earn a good living!

If this concept is strange to you, that only shows that you are rather blind! Sorry to say this so straight out, but I don`t think you try to find a solution to the problem that doesn`t include genocity or slavery of the Palestinians. You sound hatefull and aggressive, and not trying to understand how the conflict came to be or can be solved.

I can understand you - after all everyone in Isreal lives in the constant danger of being blown up by someone he never harmed or even intended to harm, whom he never even knew. Still, try to take a step back! :)

Wipe the milk of your mouth, young boy.
I will give you a tour of peace-aiding palestinien education:

----------------------------------------------------

Abusive terminology
Overview

Jews and Israelis are:
Cunning
Deceitful
Treacherous
Disloyal
Wild animals
Jewish aggressors
Robbers
Locust
Thief
Enemy
Thieving conquerors
Thieving enemy
Enemy of prophets and believers

The Evil Enemy
a. Overview
Palestinian Authority school children are actively taught that the Jews and Israel are the enemy in a broad range of contexts. The school texts portray the Jew as the enemy of believers, the enemy of Islam, the enemy of the Arabs, as well as generally evil and dangerous. Jews are killers and robbers and have stolen Arab land. Modern events are misrepresented to portray Israel and Jews as the evil force in their world. Zionism is equated to Nazism. Together they are depicted as the prototype examples of racism. These themes also appear regularly on PA television.

b. The Evil Enemy


"Complete the following blanks spaces with the appropriate word:
The Zionist enemy - - [attacked] - - civilians with its aircraft.
[Our Arabic Language, Part II for Third Grade #523, p..9]




"Why do the Jews hate Muslim unity and want to cause division among them? Give an example of the evil attempts of the Jews, from events happening today."
[Islamic Education for Seventh Grade #745, p. 19]




"The Jews ... have killed and evicted Muslim and Christian inhabitants of Palestine, whose inhabitants are still suffering oppression and persecution under racist Jewish administration."
[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade #589, p. 182]




"Who is the thief who has torn our homeland?"
[Our Arabic Language for Sixth Grade Part I, #553, p. 15]




"Write in your exercise book: An event showing the fanaticism of the Jews in Palestine against Muslims or Christians."
[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade #589, p. 182]




"One must beware of the Jews, for they are treacherous and disloyal."
[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade #589, p. 79]


A section on Zionism is entitled:


"Zionist Greed."
['Modern Arab History and Contemporary Problems, Part II, for Tenth Grade #613, p. 49].


Even racism is defined through the Jews, while Nazism and Zionism are equated:




"Racism: Mankind has suffered from this evil both in ancient as well as in modern times, for, indeed, Satan has, in the eyes of many people, made their evil actions appear beautiful... Such a people are the Jews..."
[Islamic Education for Eighth Grade #576, p. 95]




"The clearest examples of racist belief and racial discrimination in the world are Nazism and Zionism."
[Modern Arab History for Twelfth Grade, Part I #648, p. 123]




"Understanding the racist and aggressive character of the Zionist Movement. Summary of the similarity between Nazism, Fascism and Zionism."
[Modern Arab History for Twelfth Grade, Part I #648, p. 92]


c. Islamic Sources used to Create Stereotype

At times, the offensive portrayal is based on Islamic sources. The children are taught to apply the traditional narratives to hateful teachings regarding Jews and Israelis today. Five examples:





"I learn from this lesson: I believe that the Jews are the enemies of the Prophets and the believers."
[Islamic Education, Part II, for Fourth Grade #531, p.67]




"From the Uhud expedition... a number of lessons can be learned...: Treachery and disloyalty are character traits of the Jews and therefore one should beware of them."
[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade #589, p. 87]




"The Jews adopted a position of hostility and deception towards the new religion. They called Muhammad a liar and denied him, they fought against his religion in all ways and by all means, a war that even today has not yet ended , and they conspired with the hypocrites and the idolaters against him and they are still behaving in the same way..."
[Islamic Education for Seventh Grade #745, p. 125]




"In many cases these Jews acted according to their known cunning and deceit, and they incited wars [between Arab tribes]..."
[Islamic Education for Ninth Grade #589, p. 78]




"Lessons to be learned: One must beware of civil war, which the Jews try to incite, and of their scheming against the Muslims."
[Ibid. #589, p. 94]


d. Misrepresentation of modern events

Modern events are misrepresented to portray Israel as active in an ongoing attack against Islam and the Arabs. Two examples: In 1969 an Australian [non-Jew] set the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem on fire. Yet, the children are taught that Israel is responsible.




"This arson is a further chapter in the Zionist plot, whose aim is to take control of this Islamic holy place, the Dome of the Rock and the whole area of the Jerusalem sanctuary and to destroy all that is holy to Islam."
[Reader and Literary Texts for Eighth Grade #578, p. 97]


The Zionist movement has never called for the expulsion of Israel's Arab citizens. Yet the books teach that Zionism calls for this "expulsion":

"Zionism is a political, aggressive and colonialist movement, which calls for the Judaisation of Palestine by the expulsion of its Arab inhabitants ...
[Modern Arab History and Contemporary Problems, Part Two, for Tenth Grade #613, p. 49]

------------------------------------------------------------


Israel must be fought through Jihad (Holy War)
a. Call to fight Israel
The calls to fight and eliminate Israel through Jihad (Holy War) and Martyrdom for Allah, appear frequently in the PA school books. In addition there is a separate recurring theme: the children are taught to fight and conquer Israel's capital, Jerusalem.




"Know, my son, that Palestine is your country... that its pure soil is drenched with the blood of Martyrs... Why must we fight the Jews and drive them out of our land?"
[Our Arabic Language for Fifth Grade #542, p. 64-66]




"...there will be a Jihad and our country shall be freed. This is our story with the thieving conquerors. You must know, my boy, that Palestine is your grave responsibility ..."
[Our Arabic Language for Fifth Grade #542, p. 69-70]


In the poem "Palestine" the children are taught to wage Jihad (Holy War) against Israel:




"My brothers! The oppressors [Israel -ed.] have overstepped the boundary. Therefore Jihad and sacrifice are a duty.... are we to let them steal its Arab nature... Draw your sword... let us gather for war with red blood and blazing fire...Death shall call and the sword shall be crazed from much slaughter... Oh Palestine, the youth will redeem your land..."
[Reader and Literary Texts for Eighth Grade #578, p. 120-122]


The books then ask questions to emphasize the message that Israel, the enemy, is to be fought and defeated:




"2. Who are the "oppressors" to whom the poet is referring in the first verse?
3. What is the road to victory over the enemy that the poet mentions?
4.The poet urges the Arabs to undertake Jihad. Indicate the verse in which he does so."
[Reader and Literary Texts for Eighth Grade #578, p. 120-122]




"If you look towards the city Jerusalem, you will see the Dome of the Rock with its beautiful golden color, and you will feel you have the responsibility to free the captive Mosque and the mourning Dome from the thieving conquerors."
[Our Arabic Language, Part I, for 4th grade #532, p. 28]


The need to fight Israel, all of which is said to be on "occupied Arab land" becomes a religious imperative, with teachings like the following:




"... if the enemy has conquered part of its land and those fighting for it are unable to repel the enemy, then Jihad becomes the individual religious duty of every Muslim man and woman, until the attack is successfully repulsed and the land liberated from conquest and to defend Muslim honor..."
[Islamic Education for Seventh Grade #564, p.108]




"What, in your view, is the way to liberate Jerusalem, bearing in mind its liberation by the Muslims in the time of Saladin
[Reader and Literary Texts for Eighth Grade #578, p.102]




"Bayonets and Torches
'...In you left hand you carried the Koran,
And in your right an Arab sword...
Without blood not even one centimeter will be liberated
Therefore, go forward crying: 'Allah is great.'"
[Ibid. #578, p. 131-133]




"The poem represents a reality lived by Palestinians. Explain this."
[Ibid. #578 p. 135]




"Poems to Learn by Heart":
'Oh Jerusalem'
If the thief tears our homeland
And our people driven from the land
What is left but to call to Allah ...
Who will take hold the sword, without fear of death...
Or will hold the flag at the head of great victorious army
Lead by Al-Faruk..."[ 'Umar ibn al Khatab' who conquered Jerusalem in 638.]

[Our Arabic Language, Part I for Sixth Grade #553, p. 14]


Questions on Comprehension:
Who is the thief who has torn our homeland?
What, in the poet's opinion, is the way to liberate Jerusalem?
Can Al-Faruk lead an army? Why did the poet mention him?

[Ibid. #553, p. 15]




"Muslims must protect all mosques ... and must wage a Jihad both of life and property to liberate al-Aqsa Mosque from the Zionist conquest"
[Islamic Education for Seventh Grade #745, p.184]




"Subject for Composition: How are we going to liberate our stolen land? Make use of the following ideas: Arab unity, genuine faith in Allah, most modern weapons and ammunition, using oil and other precious natural resources as weapons in the battle for liberation."
[Our Arabic Language for Seventh Grade, Part I #566, p. 15]




"What must we do to liberate Jerusalem?"
[Reader and Literary Texts for Eighth Grade #592, p. 63]




"What can we do to rescue Jerusalem and to liberate it from the thieving enemy?"
[Ibid. #592, p. 99]




"Make use of the following expressions, making logical sentences:
Wise opinion the Zionist danger he called for a Jihad disaster remaining cool-headed."
[Our Arabic Language, Part I for Sixth Grade #553, p.29]




"A Poem of Palestine
To Palestine greetings from Arab hearts...
Who has stubbornly and successfully resisted the chains of the enemies.
For me - the promise of Martyrdom and Palestine is my song
From Jerusalem I shall build my ladder towards eternity."
[Our Arabic Language for Second Grade, Part II #513, p.51]




"The Muslim connects the holiness of al-Aqsa Mosque, and its precincts, with the holiness of the 'Sacred Mosque' and Mecca. Therefore, any aggression against one is an aggression against the other and to defend them is to defend Islam itself. Disregard of the duty in respect of them is a crime for which Allah will punish every believer in God and His Prophet."
[Islamic Education for Eighth Grade #576, p. 50]




"Fill in the appropriate word from among the following: they, he, she: ______ is the commander of the Muslim forces in the capture of Jerusalem."
[Our Arabic Language for Second Grade, Part II #513 p. 42]


b. Impending victory of Islam and the Arabs over Israel and the west


The children are assured through their books that the victory of Islam and the Arabs over the Jews, Israel, the West and all religions are preordained eventualities:




"Know, my son, that Palestine is your country... that its pure soil is drenched with the blood of martyrs ... Just as this sacred soil returned to its owners [in the past], so will it return again thorough your courage and determination..."
[Our Arabic Language for Fifth Grade #542, pp. 65-66]




"Our brothers in Arab and Muslim countries felt the danger threatening us and joined with us in a noble Jihad... until the [Arab] Nation recruits its forces and there will be a Jihad and our country shall be freed, by Allah's will."
[Our Arabic Language for Fifth Grade #542, p.69]





"Remember: The final and inevitable result will be the victory of the Muslims over the Jews."
[Our Arabic Language for Fifth Grade #542, p. 67]




"This religion will defeat all other religions and it will be disseminated, by Allah's will, through the Muslim Jihad fighters."
[Islamic Education for Seventh Grade #564, p. 125]




"In the present period, which exceeds all previous periods in the material and scientific advances taking place, social, psychological and medical scientists in the West are perplexed by the worrying increase in the number of people suffering from nervous disorders... and the statistics from America in this matter are a clear indication of this...
There is no escape from [the need for] a new civilization, which will arise in the wake of this material progress, and which will continue it and lift man to the highest spiritual life alongside his material advancement. Will there be such a civilisation? Is there a nation capable of fulfilling such a role? The Western world is not capable of fulfilling this role...There is only one nation capable of discharging this task and that is our nation [Islam]. No one but we can carry aloft the flag of tomorrow's civilisation... We do not claim that the collapse of Western civilization, and the transfer of the center of civilization to us [Islam] will happen in the next decade or two or even in fifty years, for the rise and fall of civilizations follow natural processes, and even when the foundations of a fortress become cracked it still appears for a long time to be at the peak of its strength. Nevertheless [Western civilization] has begun to collapse and to become a pile of debris."

Since the beginning of our reawakening... We awoke to a painful reality and oppressive imperialism and we drove it out of some of our lands and we are to drive it from the rest..."

[Some Outstanding Examples of Our Civilization for Eleventh Grade p 3, 12, 16]


Believe me, I can pour out a LOT MORE.
 
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade


I believe my young Israeli friend was referring to the endless curriculum of hate and and anti-Semitic propaganda that is propagated through these "schools". That is what is happening there, certainly not a proper education.

I was not talking abour religious schools, and AFAIK, the UN and EU offered to check up on the schools, Arafat agreed, and ISRAEL refused!!!!!

I guess the Isrealis want a forever solution - and I guess I know what that means..... :(
 
Originally posted by Killer


I was not talking abour religious schools, and AFAIK, the UN and EU offered to check up on the schools, Arafat agreed, and ISRAEL refused!!!!!

I guess the Isrealis want a forever solution - and I guess I know what that means..... :(

Hmm. The EU and the UN have proved their view and position in the past and present, and Arafat's word is definitely to be trusted...
The truth of the matter is in the evidence presented by the blazing ice.

And that final chestnut; allusions to Israeli desires for a final, genocidal solution to the Palestinian problem:rolleyes: Where do these people get off from reality?
 
I`m very sorry to say, but I`ve heard many Isrealis say: We will never have peace unitl we kill all Palestinians. And then we may end up at war with the rest of the Arab world. That`s why we have to amke sure they never get Nukes!

Sure ther is much wrong with the way Israel is portrait! Sure most Israelis want peace! Sure public opinion has been slanted towards the Palestinians point of view, if simply by the fact that Israel actions are "new" while the terror attacks are so "old" and common that we tend to forget or at least ignore them.

Blazingice, thanx for the quotes! I`ve read stuff like that, too.

My main point still is:

the way Isreal can achieve peace (though a very wobbly one) cannot be the way it is going now! Whatever would be just (and I`d say build a wall around palestinian areas, give them on harbor and one airport so they don`t become the worlds poorhouse forever, then make the thoughest ever border controls), whatever would be just, the way Isreal acts is a

PUBLIC REALTIONS DESASTER!!!!

Bombing the schools paid for by the EU - BAD BAD BAD!!!!!

Give these time to work! There will be new textbooks and new teachers! Look at Saudi Arabia! The ruling familiy there is driving a dangerous and risky course between the radicals and the west. Do they have people kill foreigners on the street? I would expect to see that, but since people there are well off - even those who have to work, and work hard, we don`t see that!

Solving the Israel-Palestin problem will take time until everyone who has experienced the violence is dead. Until then, you will always find people who cannot let go of their hate.

But it is NOT a good idea to breed endless new generations the same way. Sure at first you will not reach everybody. maybe even only a small part on the population. But this will grow, while today it is noone!
 
I don't really care about public relations.
What I care about is my country trying to protect my life.
As long as the palestineins continue to take advantage of our retreats to bomb us, and the palestinien authority won't even TRY HARD to stop them, we will stay in the territories.
 
As an american it's hard to say that I support Palestine in our current state, and truthfuly I don't, but that doesn't mean I hate them, or support Isreal either, If we, The United States was truely a police state like we say we wouldn't take sides, but we have, and by doing so turned a large portion of the world against us. I think the best thing to do is continue on the track we are on now, Telling them both to stop it and work out things with diplomacy, or we should just step back and let them fight it out, which isn't all that great of an idea but I don't think other countries need to be involved in a conflict if it isn't threatening to turn into a global conflict. And once again It's hard for me to make informed ideas because any information I have on this is from the American media, which is pretty pro-Isreal. But over all I think the best think for the US to do is to do what we've been doing the past few weeks and not take sides. I know Isreal is an ally but this fighting isn't solving anything and it would be nice to end this with no more blood shed. Sorry if I have offended anyone with this, It's just my 2 cents on the issue.
 
Thanks for posting all those quotes IceBlaze, I might have to borrow some of them.

Originally posted by Killer
I was not talking abour religious schools, and AFAIK, the UN and EU offered to check up on the schools, Arafat agreed, and ISRAEL refused!!!!!
Can you detail that? I've never heard of it.

Originally posted by Killer
I`m very sorry to say, but I`ve heard many Isrealis say: We will never have peace unitl we kill all Palestinians. And then we may end up at war with the rest of the Arab world. That`s why we have to amke sure they never get Nukes!
Israel already has a nuclear arsenal and delivery systems, and have had them for about 20 years. Its a good thing they have so much restraint and compassion, no?
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
I don't really care about public relations.
What I care about is my country trying to protect my life.
As long as the palestineins continue to take advantage of our retreats to bomb us, and the palestinien authority won't even TRY HARD to stop them, we will stay in the territories.

So why can`t Isreal take the ONE IMPORTANT STEP????

Give the Palestinians a place to live, that is give them enough territory, 1 harbor city, 1 airport, THEN KEEP THEM OUT OF ISRAEL!!!!!!

Sorry to say, but not doing this just because of those ridiculous settlements......

Gredarius: I will check past news articles....

as for the nukes: I find it quite unnerving that the Israeli people - NOT their politcal leadership - talks about possible nuclear war. Would you be happy to hear most of Texas talking about nukeing Mexico???? I do not think anyone will be stpid enough to let that devil loose there, but the mood in Israel has (understandably) become pretty frightening!
 
"If we, The United States was truely a police state like we say we wouldn't take sides"

I must have missed the memo on this where the US formally stated that they would be the world's policeman.

I know in some cases it seems we have fallen into that role, but the world has made it clear that it doesn't want a policeman, and we have never really taken the job in ther first place.
 
Discussion has turned to Mid East troubles. Not that it wasn't intended to...

IceBlaZe, excellent report. Ever think about writing a thesis or publishable book on such schooltime propaganda?

Take heart. If things do not improve within the next decade or so, the first GM plants that exude petrochemicals will be mass produced, or new energy technologies will finally emerge, or solar power will become truly viable...Either way, the developed nations are going to become self sufficient fuel-wise, and you know where that will lead. Israel has good GM labs I hear, so vote for a higher tax rate going into fuel-plant research!

And oh yes...No more war! Please stop. Like that's gonna happen anytime soon. I know human nature well enough to understand things like pride, resentment, revenge, etc. And of course, as a CounterStrike player I also see the deeply embedded human need to blast things into bits.
 
Actually I took it from
http://www.edume.org/reports/1/1.htm :D

so many violence breeded into the palestinien community, using EU money, but no one gets the message these kinds of reports try to send.
 
Originally posted by IceBlaZe
so many violence breeded into the palestinien community, using EU money, but no one gets the message these kinds of reports try to send.
:lol: Watch this...

The European Union advocates the murder of innocent children

That was fun...
 
Unfortunately it's true :(
 
I am REALLY going out a limb here...Where I make an extremely easy sniper target. Islam like most religions DOES advocate peace and other good stuff. But being of a particular religion does not mean that one is a good individual, morality-wise. As a light hearted example, take Bill Clinton : )

Getting serious: Islam originated among a people who had largely forgotten their handed down knowledge. A dam that their ancestors built was left in ruins because no one knew how to repair it. Slavery, multiple wives and abuse of women and children, killing and war...Think Fallout 2 raiders, or the world Snake Plissken lives in. Then a new religion (which bears much similarity to an older one) arises, and miraculously converts many into propenents of good and peace. But not until after much fighting and discrimination: Imagine you are a game designer. How would you feel if someone based his game on yours, made it very similar and said it was better, validated by Shigeru Miyamoto, and he was the latest and last great designer of this game format. This would about explain how members of Judaism felt, I think. Add to this the fact that you didn't like his team of designers much to begin with.

My point is, how fast can a culture (and perhaps ingrained genetics) change in the face of a new way of thinking? No matter how much the government campaigns against littering, is it enough to change your own wishes and actions? Therefore would the existing culture's own values and traditions still hold an important, immovable position, to the point that it affects the adoption of religious ideas? Could a religion be coloured by the surrounding society? You know how the likes of Osama can "pull" a religion's viewpoint in the direction he wants. It is my belief that often, religious views are skewed in favour of those who choose to use/abuse it for their own/political purposes. In fact Muhammad had to make some concessions (probably to the lusty young and not-so-young dudes) regarding polygamy, and stated that you should ONLY take another wife if the first does not satisfy your needs (very subject to your definition of acceptable level of satisfaction I think).

So when you hear on the news or from people's mouths, about how a religion advocates this or that, think it over: Is it the religion itself that teaches that, or is it what the society/culture/politics encourage? Islam does not say "Kill The Jews," but many verses can be taken out of context to support the feelings of Jew bashers. I'll have to see if this post gets moderated, but there's my mind spoken.
 
Originally posted by Ouchgeddon
So when you hear on the news or from people's mouths, about how a religion advocates this or that, think it over: Is it the religion itself that teaches that, or is it what the society/culture/politics encourage? Islam does not say "Kill The Jews," but many verses can be taken out of context to support the feelings of Jew bashers. I'll have to see if this post gets moderated, but there's my mind spoken.

very good point!
just check out the Christians in the Balkan - lots of hatefull people there, or in Ireland....
 
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