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If I attack a civ who I'm no longer friends with, I'm still a backstabber?

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by alysenne, Dec 20, 2012.

  1. alysenne

    alysenne Chieftain

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    I agreed to a declaration of friendship (DoF) with one civ, but she attacked me about 10 turns later. I eventually signed a peace with her and she was immediately friendly to me. No grudge.

    Because she attacked me, I assumed that the friendship was over. When I open a dialog with her, I can ask her to make a joint DoF.

    But apparently, I still have a DoF with her? When I tried to attack her about 30 turns later, I got labeled a backstabber and got negative diplomacy with every civ.

    This doesn't make sense.
     
  2. Smokeybear

    Smokeybear Emperor

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    I've noticed that too, and no, it doesn't make any sense. Just another gaping hole in the diplo system. If you are not officially in a DoF right now with another civ, then you should not qualify for being a 'backstabber'. Past DoF's that have expired should not affect you that way, period.
     
  3. Biologist

    Biologist Researcher

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    What was the exact diplo modifier? If it was "You declared war on a civ you had a Declaration of Friendship with!", then it might be a bug. If it was "They believe you are a warmongering menace to the world!", then it could be for any number of reasons.

    The "warmongering menace" penalty seems to pop up for all kinds of reasons, but here's some consistent ones that I've found:

    1) Declaring war in the very early game.

    2) Declaring war and refusing peace for a very long time when you are militarily superior.

    3) Erasing a civ from the game.

    4) Declaring serial wars on one or more civs (i.e. declaring war, making peace, and immediately going to war again, or attacking many civs at once).

    Also, different leaders have different levels of distaste for warmongering. Atilla, Ghengis, Oda, and Boudicca probably won't care if you wipe out an entire civilization; I've had Boudicca stay friendly with me (through the end of the game) despite sharing borders with me after I wiped out two other civs. Gandhi, Ramesses, and I think Maria Theresa are some of the first to point fingers at a warmonger, on the other hand. I think Washington has the most varied personality from game to game, based on what I've seen.
     
  4. alysenne

    alysenne Chieftain

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    Okay, I reloaded the save to check a few things. I'm not sure yet whether I should continue with the reload or suck it up.

    Before my DoW, in the diplomacy popup, she's friendly to me and "We have made a public Declaration of Friendship." I'm assuming she's thinking about the one we made before she attacked me.

    After my DoW, I checked the Global Politics window. Strangely, it no longer says 'BACKSTABBED' in big red capital letters. So already, this seems like a bug.

    The diplomacy modifier with every other civ says "You have Declared War on leaders you've made Declarations of Friendships with!"

    Is this a significant negative modifier? Is it one that ever expires (doubtful)?
     
  5. Smokeybear

    Smokeybear Emperor

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    So let me get this straight- you two had a DoF, then she attacked you first and nullified it, then you made peace and she went back to being friendly with you, BUT, there was no longer an official DoF between you at that point (naturally)? I dunno, but in my mind, if another civ backstabs you out of a DoF with them, and you do not renew that DoF after ending a war with them, then there should be no reason left under the sun why any other civ would have a good reason to accuse you of 'backstabbing a friend', since they were no kind of friend to you at all, very obviously from their previous actions. Just more CiV diplo foolishness. Should have been a rather simple coding solution: if you are backstabbed by another civ while you are in an active DoF with them, all existing diplo affects of that DoF are completely nullified, and you can no longer be accused of backstabbing a friend if you attack them later on without ever renewing the DoF. Nah, makes way too much sense. Never happen.
     
  6. TheMarshmallowBear

    TheMarshmallowBear Benelovent Chieftain of the BearKingdom

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    Dark red/green are the ones that expire, bright red/green do not expire.

    I don't think that the DoF was nullfied, after the war was over, it appears that the DoF was still active despite the war.
     
  7. Smokeybear

    Smokeybear Emperor

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    The dark/bright colors only indicate which modifiers are currently the strongest and most influential in their diplo decision-making process. As time passes, the bright ones will dim. Some will never go away, but they don't stay bright forever unless you continue to do things that 'light them up'.

    For instance, if you share spy intel with another civ that isn't hostile to you, the resulting color will be light green- share two or more bits of intel, it will turn bright green. Eventually, if no further intel is shared, it will dim and finally disappear.

    How could the DoF not be nullified by war? Unless you are saying it could be a bug. He said that when he went to talk to his opponent after the first war ended, the option to ask for a DoF was available, which means you are not currently in one. If you are in one, you can't ask for one.
     
  8. adwcta

    adwcta King

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    Not true... bright red/green ones do expire, some of them at least (like "you've traded recently" or "you helped them when they asked"). They're independent variables. On the other hand, light greens ones like the embassy ones do not expire, since embassies remain until DoW/denouncement.

    OP: Go by the hover text on the diplomacy screen, that seems to be the most accurate indicator. If it says you're in a DoF, you're in a DoF for purposes of the game. You're still bound by your word. This is the thing about this game... your word is bond; it is the #1 thing in Civ AI Ethics. Besides money, it is the #1 thing the AI reacts to. Unless you're looking for war or just to generally be hated, do not ever ever break your word, even if it's nonsensical. Now, since the game doesn't tell you what you've promised each civ, it helps to keep track (I use notepad on my desktop for this for long games, or games w/ many civs, just so I don't forget).

    Try this though. Try to ask her to be friends with you. She should say no, I assume, since the turn before she was still mad enough at you to war. See if this'll reset the hover-text and get you out of your DoF.
     
  9. TyBoy

    TyBoy Prince

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    I think this is a bug but I'm not that surprised at it. I've definitely had the AI bring up the renew a deal screen on deals that had been long interrupted by war before. Not that that is proof of anything but it does indicate that something isn't working quite right in terms of broken deals.

    I feel like I've also seen the DoF has run out message pop up on DoFs that had been interrupted by war, but I'm not completely sure on that one.
     
  10. Biologist

    Biologist Researcher

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    I've had cases where I had a formal Declaration of Friendship with an AI, they declared war on me, and then after the war our Declaration of Friendship was still on. So you have to carefully check the text to see whether the game shows you as still having a Declaration. I'm fairly certain this is a bug, since in cases where I declare war first, the DoF does expire.

    If you must go to war with somebody that you have a DoF with (bugged or not), denouncing them will cancel the DoF. This gives you a diplo penalty as well, but it prevents the "you declared on a friend" penalty. The "you denounced a friend" penalty seems to fade faster from the AI's mind than the "you declared" penalty.
     
  11. adwcta

    adwcta King

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    Seems like a pretty large loophole if it's weighed less than breaking your word and you can do it on the same turn. :confused:
     
  12. NotSure

    NotSure King

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    Why would it be a large loophole? You can't cancel trade agreements and this is the only way to get out of a bad DoF. Many of the AI use a DoF as a cute little trap to either: start bullying/conquering CS; denounce/declare on other civs; settler-spam you into a corner; GP bomb your holy city. The trap is to lock you into a declared friendship and then do whatever they can to make your game harder. It's probably a smart move to get out of that friendship fast and start to turn your game around, right? You're still stuck with a diplomacy hit for the denouncement.
     
  13. kamex

    kamex Emperor

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    I've noticed this bug too. AI has a dof with me, backstabs and declare war, makes peace, dof is apparently still valid as he then asks me to give him gold for free... :S
     
  14. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Which, I hope, you refused ... with the most savage mouse click you could manage.
     
  15. Biologist

    Biologist Researcher

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    The difference isn't that huge. It makes sense for it to be weighted a little less heavily because denouncement is less extreme than outright war. In any event, denouncement is the only peaceful way to cancel a DoF.
     
  16. alysenne

    alysenne Chieftain

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    I did try denouncing, then declaring war in the same turn. It had the same result where I got the negative diplomacy hit with every other civ for attacking a friend. Maybe I need to wait for the other civs to get word of my denouncement? I'll try it later.

    I'm definitely trying to figure out the least painful way to workaround this bug...and yes, I'm now certain that it's a bug.

    I also get the 'warmonger' diplomacy hit with about half the other civs too. I'm worried about multiple AI dogpiling me as a result of this.

    I suppose I could just wait. I'm pretty certain that this AI is going to attack me again, sooner or later. We're now sharing a border. I hope the AI gets the same negative diplomacy hit for attacking me.

    (I've been kinda complaining a lot...with this bug and not liking espionage, but I'm having a lot of fun, really!)
     
  17. NotSure

    NotSure King

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    I wouldn't worry too much about the warmonger penalty. You get that whenever you declare war or conquer cities. The hit you take when all the leaders greet you as "dishonorable" is the heavy global one you want to avoid (for attacking a "friend" or lying about troops/settling).
     
  18. adwcta

    adwcta King

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    The whole point of a DoF is to that you won't attack the civ... or you break your word and get a huge penalty. if you can get out of it whenever you want and take a smaller/shorter diplo hit, of course that's an unintentional exploit in the game.

    In other words, when would you ever declare war on a DoF if you can denounce first then DoW? Seems like a redundant (and thus probably unintentional) mechanic.
     

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