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If playing Ind, is it worth building a forge first in new cities?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by bhavv, Jul 19, 2015.

  1. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    I've just been trying this as Roosevelt on archipelagos - Forge > Granary > Lighthouse > Courthouse > Harbor > Wealth. (Lighthouse before granary if settling near seafoods and no land resources, and using mines / workshops).

    It seems to work very well (I also had both gold and gems on the map, and popped a silver from a mine).

    Sorry, this was meant to be a Civ IV question, thought I was in the right place.
     
  2. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Moderator Action: Moved to Civ IV - Strategy & Tips.
     
  3. SpK

    SpK Warlord

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    Depends on if you need the :)
    and how much :food:
    And how much base:hammers: the city will have

    If you are +6:food: or more with at least 1:hammers: per pop, then granary first, a workboat to get to +6:food: if that doesn't get you there, then a lighthouse moves up the priority list
    so long as you get some production, growth is faster, even without the whip

    If you have excess food and excess hammers, than a forge while growing pays back.

    Depending on your base:hammers: even a cheap forge takes forever to pay back building wealth, but those :) are worth it if you need the happy cap

    You need at least 13 base:hammers:, to get enough bonus:hammers: that the conversion to :gold: to be more than 1gpt, if I am doing the math right???

    The forge makes a lot more sense if you are gonna end up with bank, market, and such there
     
  4. elmurcis

    elmurcis Emperor

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    Some cities engineer (and later priest, specially if get Angor Wat) can be only "base production" except whip for very long time... in this situation cheap forge (2 not 4 pop whip, and forge I love to whip even without IND because overflow from it get this 25% bonus) is more than welcome :)
     
  5. Tatran

    Tatran Deity

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    I would probably start building a forge and when a city has reached size 4 + 50% required for size 5,
    I will whip the granary and the overflow goes into the forge.
    And when there's overflow left it goes into the lighthouse.
     
  6. elitetroops

    elitetroops Deity

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    Not sure about LH before granary. LH gives +1 for each seafood, granary doubles food surplus, which essentially is +2 or +3 for seafood in small city without LH. With ORG it's kind of close I guess... Depends on whipping/chopping possibilities and if the seafood is fish.

    Anyway, if you want a definite answer to the question, you can test it. Start new game, give yourself the needed techs, a settler and worker in a suitable location and maybe a workboat if that would be coming in from a different city. Save game and press end turn until those buildings are up, note turn number, city size, food bar, hammer overflow and beakers produced, then reload and redo with different build order. Takes a few minutes, but can give you a lot of insight. Difference in results might be huge.
     
  7. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

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    There's no reason a new city should need extra happiness, particularly if you already have at least one of gold/silver/gems. Not even a low food city should prioritize a forge over a granary. What good is a 25% production boost or an engineer to a city producing few base hammers and growing slowly?
     
  8. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    Forges first aren't worth it, except if you chop out an important building like the Forbidden Palace in a low-food-city. IND makes little difference. Granaries are just too strong, they double the :food: -surplus, Forges only give a mere increase of +25% :hammers: .
     
  9. SpK

    SpK Warlord

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    But he isn't optimizing production, he is eeking out wealth. Just like with the courthouses. If he isn't going to use the city for military, at least it gives him something to use the city for.

    and a forge could pay back sooner and more than a granary, it also pays on every :hammers: whereas granary only pays on stored :food:, not food for feeding your population.

    I haven't done the math, but there is likely a point where building all the buildings he wants gets you there faster going forge first.
    have to be low :food: and high :hammers:, so not really ideal location, but it could conceivably occur....

    settling places with +6:food: would be noticeably faster. .. but on say, a frozen tundra map, they would be rare xD

    as for IND, it is just an attempt to make the 3gpt his plan creates in each city pay back in ~60 turns, rather than ~120 turns. ... vs. just going Wealth from the get go, that is.
     
  10. Seraiel

    Seraiel Deity

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    I only read that he wanted to build a Forge first, reread the post now.

    Building a Forge first is still horrible, because a city having 8 :hammers: i. e. would only give 2 extra :hammers: , while a city having a :food: surplus of 2, which is already the case when working 1 unimproved Grassland would outproduce the Forge through the whip.

    Building a Lighthouse first can be good play, if i. e. conquering a big city that has lots of seatiles and that would starve otherwise, but building a Lighthouse first where there is seafood is terrible, because it only gives +1 :food: , so again, having 2 :food: surplus and the Granary would be better.

    Courthouse before Library also sounds terrible, I don't know why you have 3k of banked :gold: on most of your screenshots, but then research with 30% and build Courthouses, :gold: is there to be amassed and spent, :science: is what gives the win.

    And I don't have one harbour yet in my current game, though I think that they're even half price with EXP (don't know, play EXP to seldom) and they would create as much as 3 :commerce: , it's just that all other options have always been better! (Units for Conquest, AP-Temples, Forges, yes, even Courthouses and Libraries. )

    Really, I can't tell if this is trolling. How can someone have 5000 posts and not post one good thing? It even would need to happen through sheer chance sometimes, but this post is like RNG in my current war.

    Moderator Action: You last paragraph is trolling and is unacceptable. Please stop the personal attacks.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  11. oranje willem

    oranje willem Prince

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    I think he's a troll as well, I haven't seen a single post that makes any sense for someone with that much 'experience', always claiming some suboptimal (mostly poor) strategy works very well.

    Moderator Action: Calling someone a troll is to be a troll. Please refrain from making personal comments about other posters. Please report posts that you find break the rules.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  12. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    For what it's worth, I don't think bhavv is trolling. His approach to the game is not very optimal, but he either doesn't understand it or doesn't care.
     
  13. SpK

    SpK Warlord

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    He enjoys his style, already admitted to "optimizing" maps with WB and save/restart when things don't go his way.....

    It is fine, I assume he will get bored of it eventually.....
     
  14. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Actually I see no difference in re-rolling 100s of times vs just adding that one gold mine you wanted. Same outcome, takes less time. (I don't use that map generator add-on)

    We ain't playing for money.
     
  15. SpK

    SpK Warlord

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    Re rolling a start is one thing, he admitted to moving resources in mid game, ....
    ...

    that being said, I don't personally re-roll starts unless another civ is within 10 squares, cause that makes it too easy.

    Which is why my current capital has 1 plains-deer, 1 flood plain, 1 lake spot, 8 plains, 3 green hills, 2 plain hills, and a mere 4 grasslands. At least the grassland are all riverside...
    I likely have coal, aluminum, and possibly oil, ....joy....
     
  16. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Whatever floats your boat. We all should play the game we want.

    Personally, I'm not looking for that 2 gold start, but I don't have enough free time to warrant the kind of start you described. I don't need great but I want something at least better then that.

    I keep trying Deity and need a little help. I'm not an expert at that level yet. I don't use national wonder fail gold because I think it's a cheat, and I play with no tech trading so I struggle quite a bit. Someday, I'd like to think I could easily beat deity with that kind of start.
     
  17. SpK

    SpK Warlord

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    Well, i can only ^maybe^ best Monarch with it. ;-)
    This is one of the worst starts I have ever seen, but so far my first 2 neighbors are little better off,

    No tech trading on Deity sounds ridiculous hard. Even with a 2 gold start.
     
  18. ecuwins

    ecuwins Emperor

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    LH first is pretty much only good when ORG and not EXP with a bunch of junk tiles. A one tile island with a single food resource is the perfect example here. One pop whip the LH at size two into a Granary will be faster than two pop whip the Granary at size four.
     
  19. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    I've read where others think that no tech trading on Deity makes the game easier.
    Usually from those that don't do it very often. I've beat Deity with tech trading on, more than a few times but very very rarely with out. It's harder to control the diplo side when you can't bribe /improve relations using techs.
     
  20. Rhavanna

    Rhavanna Chieftain

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    How would only No Tech Brokering affect the game? Seems like a happy medium?

    I enjoy tech trading but I often find it makes the game go so much faster!
     

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