If we could be "a fly" on the wall ....

[ruff_hi]

BTS introduced to be fair two of the most hated things in Civ IV, Corporations and Expionage

Personally - I like BtS's Espionage feature with the exception that switch civics / religions is way too cheap.

 

[Draginol]

I'd be curious to hear more too.....I am not sure I follow the "bigger scheme" beyond a design ....

Is this marketing? AI ? UI? Support?

All of the above? None of the above?

All of the above. You are given budget X and you have game design Y but the publisher wants the budget used to do Z. If we were talking about a movie, we'd call it "notes from the studio execs".

A lot of us have seen some terrific game designs posted here on CivFanatics. Being a good game designer is a relatively small aspect of what makes a good game. It's all in the execution of that design that matters.

Let's say I design game X and we believe that game X will have scope S. Budgets and schedule are then put together based on that. But often other things come into play that cause scope S to become scope 2S or 3S.

Let's use Elemental as an example. What was released barely resembled what we designed because what we thought was scope S turned into scope 3S and so you then have to figure out what you're going to compromise on. In other words, we weren't able to execute on S in the time/budget we had. And the results show in the final product.

And in our case, we had control over how the budget was spent and we still blew it. That's why I fired myself as Producer and brought in Kael to replace me. Imagine how much harder it is when you don't necessarily have much control over the resources available on your project?

My personal opinion is that 2K determined that we hard core gamers were simply insufficient in number to justify putting resources into features and support that catered to us and instead wished for budget and resources to be focused on features and visuals that would appeal to a "broader audience". And from a financial point of view, who knows, maybe they're right. I don't know.

 

[Omega124]

Did spore ever get any better after patches/expansion packs? That's what the folks in the thread you linked were hoping for. Not sure it happened then, and not sure it will happen with civ v.

Oh, no. Grass Grows, Sun Shines, Birds Fly, and Spore still sucks. It was fundemental decesions over the three years of development. No amount of patches can ever fix it. It would need an entire overhaul, a Spore 2, which is what fans were demanding. Seeing the new game being released, I don't think its going to happen

But enough about the dissapointment known as Spore.

 

[Draginol]

The problem a lot of executives have is that they don't realize the demographic of the PC-buying public is different from the console market.

We like "hard core" strategy games (which in the 90s would have been considered pretty casual).

To keep in the spirit of this thread's title, I think most of us here are aware that Civilization V's original vision was Civ IV gets some Panzer general mechanics. Which, I think most people here would agree, is pretty cool.

One wonders how we got from there to having massive 3D animated opponent animations spoken in native languages.

The other thing that I think is tragic about the PC game industry is the lack of understanding that PC gamers like their games to evolve over time. There's a business case for it. Elemental's retail sales were higher in October than in September and were higher in November than in October. You support your game, make it better, and it will sell better.

Seriously, is there anyone here who doesn't think that Civ V could be the best of the Civ series yet with some TLC? Or, to be more specific, are there any features that you think Civ V lacks that would be *expensive* to implement? I can't think of any.

I have read nearly every thread here that has bashed Civ V and nearly every complaint could be addressed in less than 100 engineer hours.

Makes me cry as I look at the thousands of engineering hours we have to invest to get our game where it needs to be to be satisfactory to our target demographic (you guys). Civ V requires so much less effort to satisfy its core base because it's so much better put together on day 0. Civ V has "the stuff" right there. It just needs 2K's commitment. Hopefully they'll see Civ V's potential.

 

[ImperialGuard]

All of the above. You are given budget X and you have game design Y but the publisher wants the budget used to do Z. If we were talking about a movie, we'd call it "notes from the studio execs".

A lot of us have seen some terrific game designs posted here on CivFanatics. Being a good game designer is a relatively small aspect of what makes a good game. It's all in the execution of that design that matters.

Let's say I design game X and we believe that game X will have scope S. Budgets and schedule are then put together based on that. But often other things come into play that cause scope S to become scope 2S or 3S.

Let's use Elemental as an example. What was released barely resembled what we designed because what we thought was scope S turned into scope 3S and so you then have to figure out what you're going to compromise on. In other words, we weren't able to execute on S in the time/budget we had. And the results show in the final product.

And in our case, we had control over how the budget was spent and we still blew it. That's why I fired myself as Producer and brought in Kael to replace me. Imagine how much harder it is when you don't necessarily have much control over the resources available on your project?

My personal opinion is that 2K determined that we hard core gamers were simply insufficient in number to justify putting resources into features and support that catered to us and instead wished for budget and resources to be focused on features and visuals that would appeal to a "broader audience". And from a financial point of view, who knows, maybe they're right. I don't know.

Thanks for taking the time to add the clarification !

If only there was a way to get around the Triple Constraint of Project Management (time, scope, money) ....

 

[ImperialGuard]

Makes me cry as I look at the thousands of engineering hours we have to invest to get our game where it needs to be to be satisfactory to our target demographic (you guys). Civ V requires so much less effort to satisfy its core base because it's so much better put together on day 0. Civ V has "the stuff" right there. It just needs 2K's commitment. Hopefully they'll see Civ V's potential.

I've read nothing but kudo's to you for realizing mistakes were made, hiring Kael, and maybe most importantly, not being afraid to admit the mistakes, and committing to the customer. IMO that's the one thing that Stardock does very well, that 2K just doesn't get ...customers retention and loyalty.

 

[ImperialGuard]

One wonders how we got from there to having massive 3D animated opponent animations spoken in native languages.

You have to wonder how much money and effort was spent developing something that most people look at the first 1-5 times and then just hit the button to skip past it afterwards. Same goes for the opening sequence.

Money and effort that could have been directed to other parts of the game.

 

[RobAnybody]

I've read nothing but kudo's to you for realizing mistakes were made, hiring Kael, and maybe most importantly, not being afraid to admit the mistakes, and committing to the customer. IMO that's the one thing that Stardock does very well, that 2K just doesn't get ...customers retention and loyalty.

I've got to agree here. After being so disappointed in Civ V, then getting virtually no feedback other than the Giant Potential Patch that's been "coming next week" for like 2 months now (& which doesn't sound like it'll solve problems, but rather nerf strategies), I looked around for other games to try.

I read up on how much effort & feedback the people behind it (like Draginol apparently) were putting into Elemental, so I bought it. It sounded like a fun game that's got some release problems that are being addressed. Now, I've learned my lesson a bit & am waiting to really start playing it until the 1.1 patch gets out of Beta, but the dedication from the designers was one of the reasons I was willing to buy it at all.

It used to be I could trust a Civ product from Day 1, but from now on they're among the other "wait & see" companies where it's probably best to give it 3-6 months before deciding to buy or not. It's funny how hard it is to get to the "Day 1" trust level as opposed to how easy it is to fall out of it.

 

[Fistalis]

I'm amused that the only ones willing to talk to the CIv V community from a designer/programmers perspective are people who worked on previous games in the series (Alexman) and people who work on a different TBS game (Draginol).

While the only thing we get from firaxis/2k are podcasts that tend to be more about marketing then actually conversing with the community.

The problem a lot of executives have is that they don't realize the demographic of the PC-buying public is different from the console market.

We like "hard core" strategy games (which in the 90s would have been considered pretty casual).

You hit the Nail on the head here as far as I'm concerned at least.

 

[Zyxpsilon]

Dear Mr. Froggy Draginol,

Shouldn't you be hard at work on a prospective GC3 (which - i promise you - will buy no questions asked when & then) development planning phase already, somehow?!?

 

[Drakarska]

Hear hear, I second that motion. BTW, I saw 2K Greg on earlier today ( about 11:30 am PST), you'd figure this would be a prime thread for him to post in, especially with Draginol willing to join the conversation.

 

[Dale]

The problem a lot of executives have is that they don't realize the demographic of the PC-buying public is different from the console market.

We like "hard core" strategy games (which in the 90s would have been considered pretty casual).

To keep in the spirit of this thread's title, I think most of us here are aware that Civilization V's original vision was Civ IV gets some Panzer general mechanics. Which, I think most people here would agree, is pretty cool.

One wonders how we got from there to having massive 3D animated opponent animations spoken in native languages.

The other thing that I think is tragic about the PC game industry is the lack of understanding that PC gamers like their games to evolve over time. There's a business case for it. Elemental's retail sales were higher in October than in September and were higher in November than in October. You support your game, make it better, and it will sell better.

Seriously, is there anyone here who doesn't think that Civ V could be the best of the Civ series yet with some TLC? Or, to be more specific, are there any features that you think Civ V lacks that would be *expensive* to implement? I can't think of any.

I have read nearly every thread here that has bashed Civ V and nearly every complaint could be addressed in less than 100 engineer hours.

Makes me cry as I look at the thousands of engineering hours we have to invest to get our game where it needs to be to be satisfactory to our target demographic (you guys). Civ V requires so much less effort to satisfy its core base because it's so much better put together on day 0. Civ V has "the stuff" right there. It just needs 2K's commitment. Hopefully they'll see Civ V's potential.

I've come out of self-requested banning to respond to you.... Brad.

How would you know that 2K/Firaxis aren't giving Civ5 the TLC it needs? How do you know that 2K isn't committed to Firaxis/Civ5? You don't know. I'd say from the depth of the upcoming patch it proves you wrong.

And your track record for TLCing the fans is much worse, what with all your posts flaming, banning and insulting beta testers who told you why Elemental was crap and how to fix it (which you ignored). How'd that end up for you? Oh that's right, many reviewers saying they wouldn't rate the game due to being unable to run it, and of course the PC Mag article telling everyone bluntly not to buy it. What did Civ 5 score? Oh that's right, 8's and 9's except from your boyfriend Tom Chick.

I wish you luck with your two new recruits, but with one who bloats designs and the other who doesn't listen to tester feedback, I think the trend you've set over the last three games of releasing crap on day 0 will continue.

(BTW Ainwood, why the hell aren't I banned when I specifically asked for it to be permanent????)
Moderator Action: Public discussion of moderator actions is not allowed. If you have a problem or a question about an action, then ask the moderator or any of the assigned supermoderators about it via private message.

 

[lschnarch]

(BTW Ainwood, why the hell aren't I banned when I specifically asked for it to be permanent????)

Why are you posting here if you wanted to be permanently banned?

Creating some kind of "victim story" to later tell your grandchildren?
Moderator Action: Trolling other members is not allowed here. If you can't be constructive, then don't post.

 

[ImperialGuard]

I've come out of self-requested banning to respond to you.... Brad.

How would you know that 2K/Firaxis aren't giving Civ5 the TLC it needs? How do you know that 2K isn't committed to Firaxis/Civ5? You don't know. I'd say from the depth of the upcoming patch it proves you wrong.

And your track record for TLCing the fans is much worse, what with all your posts flaming, banning and insulting beta testers who told you why Elemental was crap and how to fix it (which you ignored). How'd that end up for you? Oh that's right, many reviewers saying they wouldn't rate the game due to being unable to run it, and of course the PC Mag article telling everyone bluntly not to buy it. What did Civ 5 score? Oh that's right, 8's and 9's except from your boyfriend Tom Chick.

I wish you luck with your two new recruits, but with one who bloats designs and the other who doesn't listen to tester feedback, I think the trend you've set over the last three games of releasing crap on day 0 will continue.

(BTW Ainwood, why the hell aren't I banned when I specifically asked for it to be permanent????)

Wow ! That was a mouthfull of disrespect.

You accuse him of not knowing what 2K is doing, but you know everything that is going on with him ..... hmmmmm.....

Maybe the ban would be a good idea.
Moderator Action: That's up to the moderators and not to you. And discussing about it in public is seen as trolling, so please refrain from posting such statements.

 

[alexman]

Not all publishers are the same, and not all developers are given the same amount of freedom by a publisher. In my experience, 2K was very hands-off towards Firaxis. Just about the only thing they imposed on us on BTS, for example, was the box art!

 

[Fistalis]

(BTW Ainwood, why the hell aren't I banned when I specifically asked for it to be permanent????)

I don't know.. maybe so you don't run around throwing a hissy fit about being banned like you did in the above post....
Moderator Action: Don't troll other people.

 

[Drakarska]

Wow, that was a definite "throw down the gauntlet". Spearmen at 10 paces?

 

[jagdtigerciv]

You're right, I was a little harsh on Sid, I have always been a big fan. Wasn't he the "Creative Director" on Civ5?

I don't know why, I just feel betrayed/let down by him in particular. I just assume he's too busy with CivFaceBook to.....but maybe the Firaxis quote is better suited to him ?

Nah, you're not being harsh. It was Sid who said CivRev was what he "always wanted Civ to be". I've never been a fan of Sid, especially when I watch some of his interviews and seminars -- he's definitely NOT the brain behind Civilization as the game's title suggests, if anything, he's the opposite.

 

[PawelS]

he's definitely NOT the brain behind Civilization as the game's title suggests, if anything, he's the opposite.

I wonder what's the opposite of a brain...

 

[Dale]

I don't know.. maybe so you don't run around throwing a hissy fit about being banned like you did in the above post....

Reading comprehension 101: Actually understand what the writer said.

Wow ! That was a mouthfull of disrespect.

You accuse him of not knowing what 2K is doing, but you know everything that is going on with him ..... hmmmmm.....

Maybe the ban would be a good idea.

Everything I stated about SD/Brad is public knowledge, and quite well known to anyone who spends 2 minutes on Google and Metacritic.