If You Could Add Any Civ...

[bioelectricclam]

...what would it be? I have 2 I'd like to see:

Mayan
Leader: Quetzalcoatl (Spiritual, Philosophical)(not the god, but the Toltec ruler who was named after the god).

Unique Unit: Plumed Archer. Replaces longbow; can heal while moving. (Feel free to give me crap about ripping off Age of Empires. Another possible unit would be a Blowgunner, but I think that Plumed Archer is the better choice since the blowgun wasn't exactly a Mayan thing).

Unique Building: Ballcourt. Replaces Colliseum, allows construction of Missionaries (w/ Religion).

Dutch
Leader: Maurice of Orange (Organized, Financial) (Maurice led the rebellion against the Spanish Empire which led to eventual independence for the Netherlands).

Unique Unit: Landsknecht. Replaces Pikemen; bonus verses melee units. The Landsknecht where originally a German mercenary group, but eventually they were hired out to all parts of continental Europe. Known for wielding heavy halberds, they proved to be effective verses both horse and pikemen.

Unique Building: Jewel Craftsmen's Guild. Replaces Grocer; +1 from Gems.

 

[Columbkille]

I too would also like to see the Dutch back in the Civ fray.

This is just me but I would be very interested to see a Hawaiian civ. It would be a long shot but it might be pulled off. Maybe King Kamehameha I as the leader? Or maybe just make an all around Polynesian Civ.

 

[The Lardossen]

We (the Dutch) should have a VOC ship, that can haul troops and is a formidable fighter at the same time. This allows us to attack overseas more effectively.

The special building should be dams, that nullifies floodplains health penalties and gives river squares one extra coin (because the rivers are better navigatable for commerce because it is deeper and more in a straight line).

 

[StarWorms]

Or special windmills. I've never been to the Netherlands but the stereotype is windmills and flowers, and lots of legalised stuff

 

[GoldEagle]

I'd like to see both Australia and Israel.

 

[dh_epic]

The Mayans and Dutch are high on my list as well. Ethiopia is up there tool (it still bugs me that the basically nomadic Zulu are given so much attention).

After that, I feel like either Sumeria or Babylon should be in the game, to get some more middle eastern competition. Portugal was also a HUGE colonial power and changed the course of history for many people.

That would be my top 5. With either the Hebrews or another Asian civ as a runner up (e.g.: the Khmer?)

 

[kristopherb]

england
leader cromwell agg /spirit or agg /char
uu for the leader iron sides carelery with bonus agaist gunpowder
biulding
buckingham palace (better palace)
houses of parliment (gives court houses 75% distance penalty instead of 50%)
york minister (better cathedral)

 

[sand]

england is basically britian

 

[Gam]

I'd like to see both Australia and Israel.

I'm waiting for the inevitable 'no, no Israel,' etc.

I agree with Israel as a civ. It was as big a player in the ancient days as Egypt was, and was certainly in the mix with Sumeria, Babylon and Persia. Plus, it's very important in the history of religion, with both Christianity and Islam being based off of Judaism to some extent.

To the immediate naysayers, Israel would be included as a civ for its ancient contributions to history, not for its recent 58 years of existence.

 

[j_buckingham80]

Israel. Israel...Israel.

I have been thoroughly amazed that through 4 games of Civ, 2 expansions to civ 3, and 1 expansion to Civ 4, Israel continues to get left out of Civ. In fact, as far as it goes, no country in the world has had a greater impact on all of "Civilization" than Israel itself. You can disagree with this, but you'd be wrong. Now, maybe Rome made it possible that Israel would have such a great impact, but still not country in the world has left a more lasting impact than Israel. This is mainly through Israel's ability and willingness to write down it's history, something no other nation did well, so that even carried off into exile, you still have Genesis-Malachi. Which later were key foundations to Christianity. Which of course, had it's own impact on ...the entire world. I still find it completely amazing that Israel does not make the cut list. It has outlasted virtually every civilization listed (save for Egypt and Greece), sure it had a very long interruption, but still you can trace it back to 1200 BC. Not even Persia/Iran goes back that far. If there's any Civ that calls out, to be added, it is that of Israel. Also, the awesome thing about Israel, is that you could have two leaders...One of exceptional antiquity (e.g. Solomon) and another of modernity (e.g. David Ben-Gurion). In that since it would be a fascinating civ. (BTW Solomon should be Financial, Philosophical, after all he was wise, and in his day Israel was so rich that Silver was considered not worth counting!).

Israel, Israel, Israel, that's it's controversal who cares, that's life, Stalin made the cut into the Civ 4, why Israel can't is beyond me, if we're afraid that some people in playing MP are going to reveal themselves to be anti-semetic, well okay, so there are a**holes in the world...newsflash to me I spose. Israel needs to be in the game, and not just as a mod.

(I say this as an American Protestant.)

 

[Gam]

Anti-semitism certainly is a real issue amongst many people. I've seen it quite a bit in modding communities, even. For example, I remember that somebody was making a mod to introduce an Israelite faction into Rome: Total War awhile back. Now, this mod would have been entirely historical for the team period, and as such I don't really see how it could offend anyone.

Generally, with such mods, you either play them or you don't; nobody is forcing you to do anything, and you can avoid them by simply not downloading them. However, there were certainly people who came into the mod-introduction thread and outright announced that they didn't like the idea of Judaeans being present in the game, or other jargon of the sort.

Needless to say, this kind of backlash didn't occur for any other mod announced on the forums.

People these days tend to use the "oh, you're just calling me anti-semitic" card. Well, regrettably, anti-semitism is still a real issue these days. When comments or actions are made against Jewish issues that would not be made toward any other analagous issues, or ludicrous double standards which would not be even contemplated elsewhere are liberally applied to Jewish issues, then anti-semitism sticks itself out as the only real explanation.

Even then, though, people play that card as their defense, in an attempt to make themselves seem like the victims.

I don't intend to turn this into a thread on anti-semitism, but it's something that I've certainly experienced all over the internet. It has been an issue for thousands of years, and it certainly hasn't disappeared overnight.

 

[Kan' Sharuminar]

Babylon has to come back. Purely personal reasons, they attacked and killed me in my first Civ3 game, and so I have to destroy them every game I played.

I miss them so

 

[GenocideBringer]

Israel. Israel...Israel.

I have been thoroughly amazed that through 4 games of Civ, 2 expansions to civ 3, and 1 expansion to Civ 4, Israel continues to get left out of Civ. In fact, as far as it goes, no country in the world has had a greater impact on all of "Civilization" than Israel itself. You can disagree with this, but you'd be wrong. Now, maybe Rome made it possible that Israel would have such a great impact, but still not country in the world has left a more lasting impact than Israel. This is mainly through Israel's ability and willingness to write down it's history, something no other nation did well, so that even carried off into exile, you still have Genesis-Malachi. Which later were key foundations to Christianity. Which of course, had it's own impact on ...the entire world. I still find it completely amazing that Israel does not make the cut list. It has outlasted virtually every civilization listed (save for Egypt and Greece), sure it had a very long interruption, but still you can trace it back to 1200 BC. Not even Persia/Iran goes back that far. If there's any Civ that calls out, to be added, it is that of Israel. Also, the awesome thing about Israel, is that you could have two leaders...One of exceptional antiquity (e.g. Solomon) and another of modernity (e.g. David Ben-Gurion). In that since it would be a fascinating civ. (BTW Solomon should be Financial, Philosophical, after all he was wise, and in his day Israel was so rich that Silver was considered not worth counting!).

Israel, Israel, Israel, that's it's controversal who cares, that's life, Stalin made the cut into the Civ 4, why Israel can't is beyond me, if we're afraid that some people in playing MP are going to reveal themselves to be anti-semetic, well okay, so there are a**holes in the world...newsflash to me I spose. Israel needs to be in the game, and not just as a mod.

(I say this as an American Protestant.)

Israel was never a major power. Israel should not be in CIV IV.

 

[Gam]

Israel was never a major power. Israel should not be in CIV IV.

That's a rather abitrary statement. You didn't have a problem with Australia?

Was Scandinavia ever a major power? The Vikings were the only major plays on the world field. They were raiders across a regional area. They did scourge one major country (England) for some time. Then its members converted to Christianity and settled down. It was by no means a regional power.

Was Zululand ever a major power? Hell, no. The Zulu empire was transient at best, and it appeared in a time in which it was hopelessly outmatched. It lasted only 79 years, made close to zero impact on history besides being a speed-bump to British imperial expansion, and left absolutely no legacy to the world.

Were the Celts ever a major power? Nope. They were a racial group comprised of many tribes who spent more time fighting against each other than against anyone else. They were, wholesale, defeated by and absorbed into Rome in a single campaign. They then ceased to exist, having left no effect whatsoever, and were assimilated into Roman culture.

And many of the civs in CivIV, when compared to ancient Israel, contributed jack in terms of culture, history, and contribution to the shaping of today's world. Those civs include Mali, Inca, the Aztecs, and of course the Celts, Zulus and Scandinavians.

 

[Gam]

Babylon has to come back. Purely personal reasons, they attacked and killed me in my first Civ3 game, and so I have to destroy them every game I played.

I miss them so

I feel like Babylon should have made it into the CivIV in the first place, and the same with the Sumerians. I think the main thing missing with those two-- especially the latter-- was recognition, as compared to the civs that did make it in.

 

[winddbourne]

I have my own problems with "crontroversy", which I've mentioned too many times already. Blather. The only thing that should NOT be added is more european leaders coming before the rest of the world. Isreal would be excellent, so would ethiopia.

I'd also like to see something to represent polynesia, Easter Island, etc . . . not aborigines as they didn't build anything, but nobody can say the kingdom of Haweii isn't important, or the fact tha these peoples travelled and settled the largest ocean on earth so early and had contact with both America and Asia contributed nothing.

Plus the people of Haweii are the smartest of the "native americans" in my opinion as they only leased out their land and it is STILL illegal to own any part of the islands unless you are descended from the original inhabitants. You could say they are still around today, a unique people, hiding inside the united states.

After polynesia it would be nice to see some south american peoples, and the better north american ones. The Zapotec, the Iroquoise, The Pueblo, The Maya, The Toltec, The Moche. And the Mound Builders of the Missisippi Basin. Those cultures often don't get much press but were the "big thing" over here up to 400 years ago.

(Edit) I also have to agree that the Zulu were transitory, their best reason for inclusion today being the fact that Civ III players are eager to kick Shaka back into the ground. Ethiopia with it's pyrimids and wealth is much more worthy of inclusion. I also think the reason Zulu was selected though was because on the world map Ethiopia and Carthage would be starting pretty close together, and both would be squished between Egypt and Mali. With the Zulu to the south, Mali to the west, Egypt to the East, and Carthage front and center Africa is pretty much divided up evenly.

 

[Gam]

I have my own problems with "crontroversy", which I've mentioned too many times already. Blather. The only thing that should NOT be added is more european leaders coming before the rest of the world. Isreal would be excellent, so would ethiopia.

I'd also like to see something to represent polynesia, Easter Island, etc . . . not aborigines as they didn't build anything, but nobody can say the kingdom of Haweii isn't important, or the fact tha these peoples travelled and settled the largest ocean on earth so early and had contact with both America and Asia.

Plus the people of haweii are the smartest of the "native americans" in my oppinion as they only leased out their land and it is STILL illegal to own any part of the islands unless you are descended from the original inhabitants. You could say they are still around today, a unique people, hiding inside the united states.

After polynesia it would be nice to see some south american peoples, and the better north american ones. The Zapotec, the Iroquoise, The Pueblo, The Maya, The Toltec, The Moche. And the Mound Builders of the Missisippi Basin. Those cultures often don't get much press but were the "big thing" over here up to 400 years ago.

I agree on the north-American cultures; I'd love to see the Iroquois confederacy, which was almost certainly the largest of the native nation. In any case, the culture of the natives endures to this day, and was very unique in its day; in many ways it much more advanced advanced than that of the europeans who came over and destroyed it. Native medicine and hygiene were advanced at a time when the Europeans still regularly used bleeding as their primary means of combating disease, and living in filth (and under the papal declaration that bathing caused the flux); native democracy prevailed whilst Europe was still under the reign of tyrants; the natives were possibly the only civilization in history to ubiquitously live in balance with the environment, while the Europeans promptly set to exploiting it.

 

[j_buckingham80]

Gam-

I think you're point is exactly why Israel needs to be in the game, Take2Games, should not let a variety of anti-semitic individuals govern the mechanics of the game, imagine if they had kicked Judaism out as a religion because it would offend people. If people are going to get offended by having Israel in the game, quite frankly those people need to be offended. I want to see them offended and whine, and moan. That's all they deserve is their "offendedness."

Israel was never a major power. Israel should not be in CIV IV.

Okay...and hmm the Iroqouis were a major power? How about the Aztecs? Maya? Inca, Korea, Zulus (who lasted what oh 100 years), Did anyone even know who/what Mali was before this game, Carthage? So what if in historical times, Israel was never a major power? There are plenty of "non-major" powers in the game. We probably wouldn't even know about Carthage if it weren't for Rome. In any event, the statement that Israel was never a major power is just WRONG. Either, easily, it is a major power today, Probably in the top 5 of nations existing today, AND, by it's own history was a thoroughly major power for at least the 40 years of Solomon's reign. So as far as your "Israel was never a major power" statement you're just incorrect, misguided, and ill-informed. Not to mention the fact that the statement is wholly irrelevant. Measured by impact on world civilization from 2500 BC to the present the impact Israel has had on the world is pretty much unparelleled.

 

[Kan' Sharuminar]

I feel like Babylon should have made it into the CivIV in the first place, and the same with the Sumerians. I think the main thing missing with those two-- especially the latter-- was recognition, as compared to the civs that did make it in.

I completely agree, and I also think it'll be inevitable that we'll see the Babylonians at least in an expansion.

I mean for goodness sake, we've already got the Hanging Gardens in the game!

 

[GenocideBringer]

That's a rather abitrary statement. You didn't have a problem with Australia?

Was Scandinavia ever a major power? The Vikings were the only major plays on the world field. They were raiders across a regional area. They did scourge one major country (England) for some time. Then its members converted to Christianity and settled down. It was by no means a regional power.

Was Zululand ever a major power? Hell, no. The Zulu empire was transient at best, and it appeared in a time in which it was hopelessly outmatched. It lasted only 79 years, made close to zero impact on history besides being a speed-bump to British imperial expansion, and left absolutely no legacy to the world.

Were the Celts ever a major power? Nope. They were a racial group comprised of many tribes who spent more time fighting against each other than against anyone else. They were, wholesale, defeated by and absorbed into Rome in a single campaign. They then ceased to exist, having left no effect whatsoever, and were assimilated into Roman culture.

And many of the civs in CivIV, when compared to ancient Israel, contributed jack in terms of culture, history, and contribution to the shaping of today's world. Those civs include Mali, Inca, the Aztecs, and of course the Celts, Zulus and Scandinavians.

I was not commenting on other civs, I was commenting on Israel.