If you could change the civs....

[Bamboocha]

Which ones would you change, how and why?
This is just a silly game I thought would be fun to try out here. Basically you just pick one (or more) civ that you consider flawed and change whatever you think is wrong with it. It can be the UA, UB, UU, the leader him/herself or what have you. To get all of you started, I'll name a few things that could be changed according to me:

1. Spains seven cities of gold. I don't have the DLC but it looks very weak to me. Getting a gold bonus for discovering a natural wonder? I understand the Spanish were important to western history for their role as explorers of the world, but this is just weak. At best you get an early gold boost which means you have a pretty good early army, but that's it. At worst, you have a UA that does NOTHING. This means either you have a small boon or nothing, while most UA's give a bonus that lasts the entire game. Personally I'd replace it with something else the Spanish were famed for: their famous silver fleet from the Americas. I'd make it a power like this:

The Silver Fleet:
+1 movement to all naval units, +25% gold from all cities on another continent than the capital.

Not only does it match the Conquistadors ability to create cities on other continents, but also gives them a unique playstyle (settling on other continents, which also encourages early (naval) exploration) and gives them an advantage that allows them to get to other continents faster (though not as fast as England, Britannia still rules the waves). In the long run, it probably gives you a far better advantage than Seven cities of gold. It will also result in a somewhat historically accurate map of Spain: a small holding on the mainland and a huge mass across the sea. The result would be a unique tactic for the Spaniards: make sure you have a stable homeland until the renaissance, then use your unique Tercio and Conquistador units to explore the world and grab as much land as you possibly can.

2. Ghandi as the leader of India, for real? I know that Ghandi is pretty much a legend of our time, most likely on par with Mother Theresa, but he was not a politician, nor was he a "president". I don't get why he's the leader of the indian people, another leader would be far more accurate (but then again, we wouldn't have the lulz of being nuked by Ghandi). I'm sure India has a lot of potent leaders in her long history, so why not pick one of them? Why not pick one of the Maratha lords that fought off the Mughals instead?

3. The Jaguar warriors as replacements for warriors? I'd be willing to buy this, save for the fact that the mohawks are iron-free swordsmen. What makes the jaguar warriors inferior? They were the elite of the old world, the knights of the Aztecs. While they didn't have any iron, their armor was made of hardened cotton (which is a lot harder than you'd expect) and their stone clubs were encrusted with gems that were so sharp, there are Spanish accounts of jaguar warriors decapitating horses. Personally, the Jaguar warriors should be the iron-free swordsmen and the mohawks should be wariors.

Well, that's it for now. Please tell us what you would like to have changed in the game, assuming you had the power to change it. Of course, you can also comment on the suggestions of others if you agree/disagree with them.

 

[poom3619]

Respond to Bamboocha
1. Accord to someone in this forum. This drive player want to explore more, The amount of gold you got (if you found it in early game) can give you some edge. You can buy some military in case of emergency, make 2-3 RA. and even you didn't reach it first. You get some money though. Maybe useful when you have mild to middle decifeit due to military maintaince. Your UA are interesting though.
But what will left for Dutch and Portugal? Hopefully Firaxis don't use something crazy like, able to make land from coast and get double gold from jungle, respectively.

2. What about Asoka and Culture-oriented AI which get along well with India's UA. Relucant to declare war to other but strong when provoked to war (he was a ruthless conqueror anyway)

3. I ever watch a green beret use aztec sword in History channel. I agree with you that jaguar are like swordman rather than warrior. How about
12 str. no iron, 2HP heal for wipe out enemy

 

[Noatz]

1. The problem with Spain's UA isn't that its weak, but that its random. Indeed if your scout does find an early NW you effectively have Skilldorado'd. If you find Skilldorado itself... yeah. If you find Cerro de Potosi and can found a city next to it for a 20 gpt tile... yeah. At its best SCoG is undoubtedly the strongest UA in the game, at its worst its close to useless.

Can easily be improved by normalising the gold bonuses (300 first find, 200 otherwise or thereabouts).

Your suggestion gives I think way too much incentive for playing Archipelago type maps, where the ability would be quite ridiculous really, but would make it terrible for Pangaea games.

2. Firaxis' leader criteria appear to be based on a mix of fame and actul leadership ability. There are many canditates for leaders that could be considered better than the leaders they have gone with for that particular civ, but they need to be recognisable by people. People know Ghandi, hes the funny little bald dude that refused to fight! They don't know Ashoka or other Indian leaders from antiquity who perhaps prove a better choice.

In the same way Napoleon for France makes relatively little sense (he was primarily a general who declared himself emperor for a very brief time), nor Alexander for Greece (ruled for a total of about 13 years give or take, pretty much none of which was actually spent in Greece). But these guys are iconic historical figures and people want to play "as" them. Or at least thats what Firaxis' focus groups tell them.

3. Both units have woodsman which is their main flavour point. I guess the rationale is that Aztecs can use a warrior UU to culturefarm barbs. But I agree with you; I'm not sure what Mohawk warriors have that would constitute an iron free sword - stone axes? Jags may well make more sense.

And I would change the Ottoman UA to something good.

 

[Bamboocha]

And I would change the Ottoman UA to something good.

Just out of curiosity: what do you think is wrong with the current UA and what would you change it to, if you had said power?

EDIT: Both of you said that the UA Spain has isn't weak, but why? Sure, it gives you a nifty gold bonus for discovering wonders, but it's an effect that's very temporary. Look at the other UA's like Ancièn Regime or Sacrificial captives, those last the entire game. IIRC there are only 8 natural wonders per map, making its application very limited.

2. Firaxis' leader criteria appear to be based on a mix of fame and actul leadership ability. There are many canditates for leaders that could be considered better than the leaders they have gone with for that particular civ, but they need to be recognisable by people. People know Ghandi, hes the funny little bald dude that refused to fight! They don't know Ashoka or other Indian leaders from antiquity who perhaps prove a better choice.

In the same way Napoleon for France makes relatively little sense (he was primarily a general who declared himself emperor for a very brief time), nor Alexander for Greece (ruled for a total of about 13 years give or take, pretty much none of which was actually spent in Greece). But these guys are iconic historical figures and people want to play "as" them. Or at least thats what Firaxis' focus groups tell them.

You make a good point, but nevertheless I can't really agree with Firaxis' train of thought here. Picking Ghandi purely because he's popular, despite the fact that he never held a political office, is like picking Elvis Presley as the leader of the Americans because he's more popular with the non-American audience than Washington.

 

[Carnifaux]

Just out of curiosity: what do you think is wrong with the current UA and what would you change it to, if you had said power?

EDIT: Both of you said that the UA Spain has isn't weak, but why? Sure, it gives you a nifty gold bonus for discovering wonders, but it's an effect that's very temporary. Look at the other UA's like Ancièn Regime or Sacrificial captives, those last the entire game. IIRC there are only 8 natural wonders per map, making its application very limited.

I wouldn't say early gold is a 'temporary' bonus, if you use it correctly, that much gold can be game-changing early on. Acien Regime is great don't get me wrong but SCoG isn't terrible.

@The ottoman UA, I'd personally change it to something involving increased culture/growth/production/decreased unhappiness from annexed cities - anything would be better than what it is now.

 

[Steelyglint]

Just out of curiosity: what do you think is wrong with the current UA and what would you change it to, if you had said power?

Louis de Bernieres seemed to be of the opinion that the Ottomans were very tolerant and promoted a lot of movement within their empire.

So, mine would be;

Ottomanisation: For every in the capital, each non-capital City gets +0.25

Or;

Ottomanisation: +1 per City founded

 

[TImithius]

1.
2. Firaxis' leader criteria appear to be based on a mix of fame and actul leadership ability. There are many canditates for leaders that could be considered better than the leaders they have gone with for that particular civ, but they need to be recognisable by people. People know Ghandi, hes the funny little bald dude that refused to fight! They don't know Ashoka or other Indian leaders from antiquity who perhaps prove a better choice.

In the same way Napoleon for France makes relatively little sense (he was primarily a general who declared himself emperor for a very brief time), nor Alexander for Greece (ruled for a total of about 13 years give or take, pretty much none of which was actually spent in Greece). But these guys are iconic historical figures and people want to play "as" them. Or at least thats what Firaxis' focus groups tell them.

.

I agree with you with Alexander, he only took over mass amounts of land, he really has no other great achievement other than conquest. Pericles would be much better for Greece. Napoleon on the other hand was a good political leader as well. Sure he is remember as a general, he was also a successful government leader. First and foremost of his accomplishments is the Napoleonic Code. He aslo repaired French infrastructure and economy, before his wars drained it. And honestly I dont think they is any French leader that could be a better choice, Louis XIV and Charles De Gaulle are on equal standing with him.
The leader for India should be Ashoka or Akbar, they are muchg better choices.

 

[elprofesor]

Just out of curiosity: what do you think is wrong with the current UA and what would you change it to, if you had said power?

EDIT: Both of you said that the UA Spain has isn't weak, but why? Sure, it gives you a nifty gold bonus for discovering wonders, but it's an effect that's very temporary. Look at the other UA's like Ancièn Regime or Sacrificial captives, those last the entire game. IIRC there are only 8 natural wonders per map, making its application very limited.

You seem to forget that you also get the benefits from a NW doubled, and that is a strong permanent bonus for most wonders.

If Spain finds the great coral reef before everyone else and can settle so that both hexes are whithin reach of the city, they've pretty much won already, unless something really weird happens later.

Their UA really isn't weak, it's just too much miss-or-win. But take into consideration that they do have a very strong UU, conquistador, that can be prioritized to do some damage during the medieval era (even when there isn't another continent to go to, they do have +1 sight and DON'T have the penalty against cities), and an OK one, tercio, that will follow shortly after, if needed.

 

[smallfish]

1. Spains seven cities of gold. I don't have the DLC but it looks very weak to me. Getting a gold bonus for discovering a natural wonder? I understand the Spanish were important to western history for their role as explorers of the world, but this is just weak. At best you get an early gold boost which means you have a pretty good early army, but that's it. At worst, you have a UA that does NOTHING. This means either you have a small boon or nothing, while most UA's give a bonus that lasts the entire game.

I'd say that's good enough. Say, if they really explored early on and discovered two Natural Wonders first, that's an instant 1000 free gold. The Spanish UA isn't where its at: its their conquistadors, with the Transformer-like ability to be a self-defending caravel, a settler AND a mounted unit at the same time.

 

[headcase]

Haven't thought these through for balance but:

England: +2 movement for all naval units, +20% damage for all ranged units (naval, archers) in a golden age. (And take away the archers part if it was too much).
Spain: one gold for every hex discovered before another civ, and lax on the skilldorado bonuses.
Germany: Currently, it's 50% of getting extra gold and getting the barb when you take their camp? If so, I would change to 50% chance of getting a barb, and otherwise get extra gold.

 

[Noatz]

Just out of curiosity: what do you think is wrong with the current UA and what would you change it to, if you had said power?

Barb naval units are relatively rare compared to land units, and turning them doesn't really help you much early game (in fact it hurts you more with upkeep).

I would give them a bonus helpful for maintaining a huge empire (as they did irl). - in occupied cities, or puppets produce only half the normal unhappiness or something.

EDIT: Both of you said that the UA Spain has isn't weak, but why? Sure, it gives you a nifty gold bonus for discovering wonders, but it's an effect that's very temporary. Look at the other UA's like Ancièn Regime or Sacrificial captives, those last the entire game. IIRC there are only 8 natural wonders per map, making its application very limited.

Early advantages snowball throughout the game. If you find Skilldorado early you should notice this.

You make a good point, but nevertheless I can't really agree with Firaxis' train of thought here. Picking Ghandi purely because he's popular, despite the fact that he never held a political office, is like picking Elvis Presley as the leader of the Americans because he's more popular with the non-American audience than Washington.

America has plenty of "legitimate" famous leaders however, India (to their market anyway - I'm sure Indians know their own history) doesn't. So they go with the only Indian average americans/europeans know.

 

[KillingMeSoftly]

Personally? I love Spain, it's my favorite civilization precisely because of its wonky unique ability. Finding a Natural Wonder before anyone else is a huge boon, allowing you to essentially flat out buy a settler for another early city. Being the first to discover El Dorado is silly with 1,000 gold now in your pocket. Also you gain 2 Happiness per discovered Natural Wonder instead of the default 1, which is pretty sweet. People also seem to forget the double tile yields from worked Natural Wonders. This makes each Natural Wonder great to work, and many of them flat out overpowered. Even though Old Faithful seems the weakest Natural Wonder, don't forget you get +3 Happiness if its in your borders-- which becomes +6 with Spain's ability... making it stronger than a new luxury for happiness; a no brainer to plop down a city there.

Because of Spain's unique ability, it encourages you to go out and explore the lands and seas. I hunt down all the Natural Wonders I can find and colonize them, or take them from other civilizations. The Conquistador is a wonderfully powerful Knight replacement that helps you do this even more, not to mention being able to defend itself while at sea you can explore with them easily (how thematic). Find a nice spot for a city? Debark and settle, no need to construct a settler and worry about it getting sniped along the way (not to mention spending the turns to get it to the spot). Tercio is less interesting but it's a strong musketman replacement that also fills the pikeman role, so over-all a very good unit. Spain is undoubtfully its most interesting during the late medieval/early renassaince.

Anyway, I think Spain is pretty fun. There's a bit more luck involved but playing them like this feels quite a bit different than most of the other Civs, and I think that's a good thing. Even if you're not the first to discover you still earn 100 gold and extra happiness. Just settling one or two Natural Wonders can do amazing things.

 

[headcase]

I would give them a bonus helpful for maintaining a huge empire (as they did irl). - in occupied cities, or puppets produce only half the normal unhappiness or something.

How about... No extra occupied and no city in any city with a naval unit in it?

In other words, only regular population in coastal cities that have a naval unit.

Might be a bit overpowered though

How about keeping the barb UA and adding on to that very cheap upgrades for naval units?

 

[elprofesor]

Frankly, you shouldn't add much to Suleiman's UA. It's on the weak side, OK, but they still have the best UU in the game by a long shot (their only downside being the usual crappiness of its base unit), and a moderately useful UU, which does suffer a lot from replacing a useless unit (lancers), but becomes a beast once upgraded to choppers (6 moves, 1 extra range, and can pillage without a movement cost? You can bet it's going to be tough for your enemies to keep their resources online).

Adding somewhat cheaper upgrades for naval units would put them on the very strong side of the civs list. -33% may be reasonable, and leave it there, really. Anything more than 50% may OP them...
This suffers a bit from not being very immersive, since berber pirates weren't really supposed to be on the technological edge, did they?

 

[Gehennas]

Reply to Bamboocha:

1. Spain UA can be very useful. Even 500 gold in the beginning of the game will give a great advantage.
2. Totally agree
3. Actually, yes. Jaguars should make more sense as swordsman replacement.

I would like to have Russian UU changed. Cossacs are not the type of warfare. I think that there can be better variants (like "Katyusha" as powerful replacement for Artillery or "Strelets" - fast-to-build replacement of musketman).

 

[jtb1127]

Why should they be swordsman replacements?

 

[Noatz]

The Russians (being Russian) once detonated a 58 megaton nuclear depth charge. Quite why anyone would want a blast yield that gargantuan is a question best left to the psychologists, I'd like to see this as a UU

 

[smallfish]

The Russians (being Russian) once detonated a 58 megaton nuclear depth charge. Quite why anyone would want a blast yield that gargantuan is a question best left to the psychologists, I'd like to see this as a UU

Nuclear naval warfare? I think that might break gameplay, unless we incorporate crap like nuclear artillery, nuclear land mines and nuclear guided missiles. And nuclear forcefields, for that future age shtick.

 

[Knut_Are_M]

first ability that needs a change is india bonus.
it is an enourmous penalty on maps smaller then large.
and is a broken bonus on huge!

I would prefer the bonus to be +10% total food/-5% unhappiness.

spain and aztec ua does not scale with speed.
both bonuses are much better on quick speed. Especially spains.
500 gold on quick can end the game right there. Totally random.
finding the fountain of yourth early and first give you 20 happiness and 500 gold for that settler + warrior.

the bonus is a lol bonus, it embodies the opposite of skilled play. it is more like poker, if you are lucky you can beat even the player that makes 0 mistakes with great ease!!!

Ps in my opinon the developers needs to think about those UAs before they make them final. civ 5 suffers from a wide number of useless or broken UAs.

Under no circumstance should you allow to play duel vs spain on quick on skirmish. i tried vs ai and had 3 cities up at turn 13, a worker and 2 graineries. and 10 happiness from natural wonders.(berringer crate+ old faithful.)

 

[Steelyglint]

they still have the best UU in the game by a long shot

I take it you're not including Keshiks?