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If you were to play a CS-leveraging centered start-game, how would you do it (from the get go)?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Bliss, Feb 13, 2020.

  1. Bliss

    Bliss Warlord

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    Many times I'll have a start surrounded by at least 3 CS which could be used as military wall for my defense or offense. Usually in those games I'm in jungle with plenty of luxuries and gold opportunities. I wanna compilate important steps to have a CS start from the get go. Something like a "third way" to play. Can you guys help me to cover everything? Some things I can think of myself:
    1. First of all, improving luxuries and selling them right of the bat is important, since your main focus will be to accumulate gold;
    2. International trade routes regardless of how many cities I settle;
    3. Early monument and TS for rushing Social policies that give envoys;
    4. Governor pick: Amani for fast suzerainty;
    5. Focusing on district diversity for CS quests;
    6. Always keep the card that produces additional envoys;
    What else? Ideally, I should keep in mind that eventually I'll have to defend these CS and also, I need to capitalize this early military power and possible expansion. What would synergy well with this?

    Btw, on a side note and going off-topic a bit: one thing I used to do in Civ 5 was to become allied to aCS that had a unique luxury, use that luxury for extra Happiness and sell other unique resources of mine away, use the income to make new CS allies, and keep repeating this proccess until I'm allied to all of them (at least the ones that have different luxuries).

    I wanna do something like this in Civ 6 but because Envoy is so attached to culture, you need to keep converting your gold into culture eventually.

    PS: I'm aware of the existance of Hungary and Foreign Ministry building, lets ignore them for now.
     
  2. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Warlord

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    It's dangerous to have several close City-States and be reliant on them; you have to keep all of them supplied with Envoys and your enemies can focus all their Envoys on undoing your hard work in their target of choice. They get flipped and suddenly you have a significant force behind your lines.

    Amani is good for fast suzerainity, and I like to hop her around to reveal map and rake in Era Score, but she's not the best for long term. Waiting until your neighbors commit their Envoys is best for long term. You never want to get into a suzerainity fight with Greece or Hungary so waiting for them to dump 6 Envoys into a location lets you optimize yours.

    Do the quests, try to avoid letting them roll over into the next Era, slot the cards that give you double value for the first Envoy you send, if you found a religion expect them to ask for Religious Conversion in the Medieval or Renaissance.
     
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  3. shaglio

    shaglio The Prince of Dorkness

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    A couple things to take into consideration:

    1) Harbor-Commercial Hub-City Center triangles - Many people seem reluctant to build both a Harbor and a Commercial Hub in the same city because you can only get a new Trade Route from one or the other. But they really can generate a ton of Gold.

    2) CS Tiles - Every time an Envoy is sent to a CS, its territory grows by 1 tile. So if you're sending Envoys to CSs on your border, you could lose some good tiles. So you need to make sure you snatch up any desirable tiles along your border with the CSs, but that will mean more money spent.
     
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  4. AsH2

    AsH2 Warlord

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    0. Settle on a Luxury to get it right away without plantation (irrigation tech).
     
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  5. lotrmith

    lotrmith Prince

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    Is this true? #mindblown
     
  6. AsH2

    AsH2 Warlord

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    I'm pretty sure it's when CS quest is done, not every envoy sent.
     
  7. nauberry

    nauberry Chieftain

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    I have noticed, that the CS tiles only grow, when either the suzerain sends more envoys to it, ot another player overtakes the previous suzerain.
     
  8. Vincent_lacruz

    Vincent_lacruz Chieftain

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    It happens every time a player/AI sends an envoy and becomes the nation with the most envoy in the city state (so, if your envoy makes your total below or equal to the dominant nation, nothing happens, but if you exceed the previous dominant civ by one it does). You don't even need to become the new suzerain for the CS to grow.

    This can lead to absurdly massive CS when they keep being conquered and liberated. I had one in one my game exceed the fourth ring like that...
     
  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Every envoy recieved (quest or otherwise) expands the CS borders, yes. So this is a key point. Amani does not cause border expansion.

    I have been playing deity Terra as Kupe for the last month... @Bliss I strongly recommend you try a game of this because Kupe gets to settle amongst all of the CS and over a few games some things emerge

    1. Border expansions by CS are a pain but at least on the terra map they do not happen while others are unaware of their presence.
    2. The moment you war with anyone expact your CS to attack you. It seems to be the current AI trick as they store envoys.
    3. The CS very kindly send trade routes to you, especially once you have more districts so are more attractive. Making one city bigger with more districts off continent can really help in tis manner.

    When surrounded by CS you need to use the CS you have to your benefit, you may not be suze but +2/+2/+2 are the main benefits of a CS that only an assassin can take away from you.
    When you get to spies try and get one that can remove envoys, really useful regardless of game but with close CS it is vital.
    Amani is really good for denial of suzerain takeover but once at war you cannot place her in an agressive CS so having some backup envoys like the AI has its uses.
    Using levy and getting levy discount really helps as you can both use your CS as cheap troops and also try and use those troops up so they get destroyed so they are not of use to anyone else or at least send them far far away.
    Sending trade routes to those CS does make them grow and does using a builder to improve their lands which you can do as suzerain as well as upgrading in their lands.
    Early golden ages are also harder due to CS clearing barb camps but also they do protect you from barbs. So if wanting to play agressively you will get little XP from CS and they will be in your way a bit so perhaps swallow the one that are of little use to you. Playing peacefully you need to be able to defend the CS which is not that hard if they are close butonce a civ has got their eye on taking over a CS they tend to just keep going for it.

    All in all it is both a blessing and a curse to be amongst them, the blessing tends to be early and the curse later.
     
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  10. Bliss

    Bliss Warlord

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    Very nice feedback hahaha :)
    I agree with your final conclusion. Towards mid and late game they are all about suzerainty bonuses and which strategic/luxury resources they may supply you.
    The cool thing about Kupe and also Harald is that they have early access to ocean, allowing them to explore the entire map fast and start farming CS quests.
    On the other hand, the flaw of such plays is that you can't rely on many sources of favor except for culture and quests (a limited number that other players will too achieve eventually).
    If we consider that the entire suzerainty mechanism (due to flavor generation) is attached to a victory type (diplomatic), and that this mechanism doesn't reward you enough and doesn't let you get too much ahead, I wonder how diplomatic victory is supposed to synergize with the leverage of CS armies, and where is the place of alliances in the middle of all this.
     
  11. Bliss

    Bliss Warlord

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    Btw, I wish they could let us use money to better influence CS just like civ V. It is better than the arbitrary system we have now. If you are chasing DV you can't really convert the tools of your empire to envoy generation, meanwhile, every gold saved could be used to get more envoys/favor.
     
    jgsb2001 likes this.

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