I'm designing a new yield for Civ VII: Stability. Looking for feedback

[kotpeter]

I came up with and documented a new implementation for Civ 7's settlement limit. I used the name "Stability" for it, as I believe it to be the best in terms of reflecting what it does and how to acquire it.

Stability description google document: Link

I'd really appreciate if someone took time to read the document and provide feedback on the system and its numbers. I know one needs to feel it in-game to provide actionable feedback, but maybe something already stands out to you as wrong, misleading or incomplete. Thanks in advance!

Disclaimer: I'm not a game designer and I'm not affiliated with Firaxis Games in any way

 

[marius_kaparius]

I cannot speak to the math but I would say any system that does a better job of communicating what it is about would serve as an improvement. That is true for the concept of Settlement limit too however. It is so difficult to comment on the mechanics of this game until the UX does a better job of communicating them. Soft cap on settlement limit and the effect on happiness being a case in point. I do like the name Stability, it makes me wonder if it couldn't collapse into the concept of Happiness itself though. You would end up in this situation where you could either go Tall and Generate more Happiness/Stability for more Celebrations and associated Policies or you could go wider and consume that Happiness/Stability to have more settlements.

 

[bladex1200]

Playing as France

+5 stability for each policy and tradition of the current age slotted in the government

I see what the point is here, to counteract negative effects from revolutionary theming and flavor, but I think the outcome of this is hilarious. Playing as a country that had a SUPER unstable history during the late colonial / early industrial period gives you bonus stability?

 

[kotpeter]

Playing as France

+5 stability for each policy and tradition of the current age slotted in the government

I see what the point is here, to counteract negative effects from revolutionary theming and flavor, but I think the outcome of this is hilarious. Playing as a country that had a SUPER unstable history during the late colonial / early industrial period gives you bonus stability?

This is the kind of feedback I'm looking for, thanks for that!

The idea here is that France cannot choose a government in the Modern Age and cannot rely on traditions from the past. Instead, it needs to forge a new way to the future through modern politics and unique French traditions.

 

[bladex1200]

This is the kind of feedback I'm looking for, thanks for that!

The idea here is that France cannot choose a government in the Modern Age and cannot rely on traditions from the past. Instead, it needs to forge a new way to the future through modern politics and unique French traditions.

Oh I 100% agree with the gameplay intention, I just find the way it's phrased in the design document to be funny. I think a better, and possibly slightly more balanced effect might be "highest source of negative stability negated (up to 5 stability points for a single source) per policy and tradition of the current age slotted in the government". This way, revolutionary government flexibility and dynamicism (throwing out all the old ways of doing things and adopting new ideas across the board) is emphasized as opposed to just making the country super stable regardless of what you do.

 

[WillK96]

I would be surprised if something like this, connected to a loyalty system was not implemented in the first expansion.

 

[kotpeter]

I just realised that with stability devs can get rid of the concept of limited policy slots entirely and balance the number of policies around stability instead (each enacted policy costs stability, and the cost scales with age). Which means, players can enact as many policies as their stability allows or even more if their happiness allows it. This is good, because it untangles celebrations from policy slots (the connection I personally found very confusing) and allows expanding “Celebrations” in another direction. Furthermore, it makes +50% celebration length unconditionally useful, because in the current implementation less frequent celebrations result in fewer policy slots. And last but not least, there’s real snowballing potential if the player can acquire a lot of stability: there’s the opportunity to enact a LOT if not ALL policies. I’d love to see an achievement for that

 

[kotpeter]

Oh I 100% agree with the gameplay intention, I just find the way it's phrased in the design document to be funny. I think a better, and possibly slightly more balanced effect might be "highest source of negative stability negated (up to 5 stability points for a single source) per policy and tradition of the current age slotted in the government". This way, revolutionary government flexibility and dynamicism (throwing out all the old ways of doing things and adopting new ideas across the board) is emphasized as opposed to just making the country super stable regardless of what you do.

Reworked France to have the following effect: "Stability cost is halved for policies and traditions of the current age" and Mexico to "Stability cost is halved for traditions".

 

[WillK96]

I just realised that with stability devs can get rid of the concept of limited policy slots entirely and balance the number of policies around stability instead (each enacted policy costs stability, and the cost scales with age). Which means, players can enact as many policies as their stability allows or even more if their happiness allows it. This is good, because it untangles celebrations from policy slots (the connection I personally found very confusing) and allows expanding “Celebrations” in another direction. Furthermore, it makes +50% celebration length unconditionally useful, because in the current implementation less frequent celebrations result in fewer policy slots. And last but not least, there’s real snowballing potential if the player can acquire a lot of stability: there’s the opportunity to enact a LOT if not ALL policies. I’d love to see an achievement for that

Yes, another factor in determining whether to go tall or wide, since going wide would require more stability. Is 1 city and 7 towns with 10 policy slots better than 3 cities and 4 towns with 5?

 

[kotpeter]

Yes, another factor in determining whether to go tall or wide, since going wide would require more stability. Is 1 city and 7 towns with 10 policy slots better than 3 cities and 4 towns with 5?

Remember than population itself also costs stability, and twice as much in cities. There's a lot to balance around and the system is very dynamic (e.g. your empire grows and you no longer can afford as many enacted policies, so you need to make a choice whether to remove a policy or to move towards your government's stability bonuses).

 

[Nikolai II]

Are you planning to mod this yourself, or is it more of a suggestion for the devs?

 

[kotpeter]

Are you planning to mod this yourself, or is it more of a suggestion for the devs?

I haven't modded anything for Civ 7, though I had a few modding projects for Civ 6 on my PC. I think it's more of a suggestion for devs or modders to implement.

 

[Lebo44]

I think it's more of a suggestion for devs or modders to implement.

You can raise it on Civ 7 Discord channel in the civ7-feedback subgroup. The devs are looking at suggestions posted there and who knows, maybe they will like it and implement something similar in the future.

 

[Nikolai II]

You can raise it on Civ 7 Discord channel in the civ7-feedback subgroup. The devs are looking at suggestions posted there and who knows, maybe they will like it and implement something similar in the future.

Good idea.

Moderator Action: In the meantime I will move it to the ideas and suggestion section of this forum.

 

[kotpeter]

You can raise it on Civ 7 Discord channel in the civ7-feedback subgroup. The devs are looking at suggestions posted there and who knows, maybe they will like it and implement something similar in the future.

Thank you for the suggestion! I just did that

Good idea.

In the meantime I will move it to the ideas and suggestion section of this forum.

Apologies for not posting to the appropriate section of the forum myself

 

[Nikolai II]

Apologies for not posting to the appropriate section of the forum myself

No worries! It took me 2 calories to click on the appropriate button.

 

[kotpeter]

I also decided to add -1 combat strength per negative stability to prevent certain abuses and ensure that positive stability is important.

 

[kotpeter]

I have an idea on how to improve celebrations (since they no longer provide policy slots): new leader attributes are introduced, which improve certain yields in the player's empire for every 3 points of positive stability during celebrations. For example, a leader attribute in the cultural attribute tree could have the effect +1% culture in your empire per 3 stability during celebrations.

• I’m concerned it may influence optimal gameplay strategies in a bad way and make them too boring or similar (careful balancing is needed). At least this bonus needs to be earned and is different for different leaders and civs and ultimately, playthroughs (becasue different leaders and civs earn different attribute points during the game).

 

[rocksinmypath]

I don’t think your solution is consistent with the motivation for it as you laid it out. Misunderstanding the settlement limit to be a hard limit is what I would consider to be a beginner’s mistake. How it works might not be immediately obvious, but the settlement limit mechanism is actually very simple and can be explained in a couple sentences. Settlement limits are also very small numbers with increases coming from a fairly limited set of sources, whereas the proposed stability yield comes from many different sources and the amount varies a lot on the source. That’s not exactly beginner friendly.

Also, maybe I’m missing something, but I can’t see why the listed effects can’t just all be translated directly to happiness changes. It looks like what you’re trying to replace is happiness, not settlement limit.

 

[tman2000]

I came up with and documented a new implementation for Civ 7's settlement limit. I used the name "Stability" for it, as I believe it to be the best in terms of reflecting what it does and how to acquire it.

I love it. Given how Civ 7 is designed around policies and abilities that provide micro yield modifications, the concept of a stability yield integrates perfectly with its design. It's also a great way to include the sort of restraint on pacing settlement limits provide without having hard limits.

I also appreciate how there are asymmetries with this design, which I what I feel Civ 7 desperately needs. It's not even wide vs. tall, it's like, "Do I go hard religion so I can build a big empire and maintain happiness, but at a cost of gold and science?" Something like certain religious policies could break the normal tall v wide balance functioning as the growth restraint but impose hefty trade-offs. Which means creating avenues for developing strategies.

I really like it.


I think happiness should still contribute to and detract from stability, but in a graded way. So only when you reach extreme unhappiness, or extreme happiness would there be a major modification to stability. With a reasonable cap on max happiness impact on stability. With this in mind, another way to repurpose happiness (if it's no longer modifying settlement limitations) would be to have happiness synergize with all yields. So, happiness will now be the unique yield that functions by modifying other yields.

• Extreme levels of happiness, plus or minus, begin to meaningfully effect Stability.
• Happiness times (1/A x Culture) x no. of trade routes produces additional Influence. Cultural influence through trade.
• Happiness times (1/B x Science) x no. of production buildings/mining towns produces additional Gold. Commerical discovery through applied science.
• Happiness times (1/C x Food) times no. of farming towns produces additional Culture (knowing that food leads to growth which can reduce happiness). Surplus food leading to folk culture.
• Happiness times (1/D x Influence) times number of allies produces additional Science. Being a world leader captures knowledge of current trends.
• Happiness times (1/E x Gold) times no. of warehouses produces additional Food. Wealth leads to imported luxury food.

While this seems like happiness just boosts everything, and that's sort of the idea, there is distinct emphasis on strategy and employing the happiness bonus more heavily in one category or another depending on your other civilization bonuses. For one there's a trade-off between mining and farming, and for two there is a dependency on maintaining alliances over other boosting initiatives.