I'm getting really sick of the AI spamming military units:

[Bast]

Case in point, Genghis Khan. On the power graph his military is off the charts.

I've had him two consecutive games now.

1. How can he afford that many units? 2. He's falling behind in techs, shouldn't he concentrate on an all rounded empire?

I know that the whole point of AI personality is that it makes them unique. But there needs to be a little more balance. AI just shouldn't spam units. It's actually a weakness for them.

BTW, I've played an ALWAYS PEACE game with him too and he spams units. But AI was so incredibly stupid in that game. I built just about every wonder on the planet. This was Noble. So is Genghis Khan unable to compete with me in nothing BUT military?

Really, this whole military spam thing is making the game tedious and boring.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Was aggressive AI on?

Aggressive civs do seem to be at a slight disadvantage, due to the unit spamming, but that depends on the game. For example, if you were attempting to conquer them, you might have to hold off until you had a sufficient tech advantage to account for his horde.

 

[Huxley Hobbes]

1. How can he afford that many units? 2. He's falling behind in techs, shouldn't he concentrate on an all rounded empire?

I think you answered your own question there No, he can't afford it. So his science rate has dropped to something like 20% or the like, and now he suffers for it. That's the main problem, I find, with all this unit spam. Defenses are easier to maintain, so if you can weather the storm with fewer units than the other folks, you can out-tech them and then stomp them into dust in later eras.

 

[Bast]

Was aggressive AI on?

God, no! I never play with aggressive AI.

 

[weimingshi]

Here's the thing, Ai don't unit spamm, lots of ppl complain that AI is a woosy militarily and they can wipe em out before jesus is born. Now, AI unit spam so they are not woosy anymore, you complain they tech too slow.

Well, if they tech slow and its too easy for you, play at higher level. That way you need also spamm a fair amount of units just to defend yourself, sort of leveling the ground a bit.

 

[Seidrik_The_Gray]

Here's the thing, Ai don't unit spamm, lots of ppl complain that AI is a woosy militarily and they can wipe em out before jesus is born. Now, AI unit spam so they are not woosy anymore, you complain they tech too slow.

Well, if they tech slow and its too easy for you, play at higher level. That way you need also spamm a fair amount of units just to defend yourself, sort of leveling the ground a bit.

The above is why I now play on Emperor.

 

[Evil Twin]

I do think however that the AI is spamming a suspiciously high amount of units now. Once I took a look in the world builder and Isabella had something like 20 tanks, 12 infantry, 15 artillery, 6 SAM infantry and some other misc units... in the capital alone! And she had several tank stacks on the field of around 8 each.
This is on top of having the second largest empire and shifting from 1st to 2nd in the tech race. On Noble!
Sorry, that's blatant cheating if I ever saw it. The AI is spammy and it doesn't have to suffer for it.

 

[Stolen Rutters]

And to think we used to have to win by spamming settlers? I love this game!

 

[PieceOfMind]

Bast I have a question for you...

If Genghis is off the charts militarily, can you show us that he is falling behind in any way? It may be that he is falling behind in tech but I struggle to believe he'd be losing.

In every game that I've ever seen an AI start skyrocketing in power it has been because they are already the strongest civ in score and probably barely fall behind in tech anyway. (It was Zara Yaqob in a couple of my games).

Perhaps you're uncomfortable with the AI having so many units (I never saw this happen in pre-BtS so it is a new feeling I agree) I can understand but I do not believe you'd be right that it is harming them very much. Do you have any gamesaves or screenshots to demonstrate that it is a weakness?

I really am sorry you're finding the game more tedious and boring now. I'm finding the game more challenging and interesting. My criticisms of the game are more related to the espionage system and how silly it is.

I do think however that the AI is spamming a suspiciously high amount of units now. Once I took a look in the world builder and Isabella had something like 20 tanks, 12 infantry, 15 artillery, 6 SAM infantry and some other misc units... in the capital alone! And she had several tank stacks on the field of around 8 each.
This is on top of having the second largest empire and shifting from 1st to 2nd in the tech race. On Noble!
Sorry, that's blatant cheating if I ever saw it. The AI is spammy and it doesn't have to suffer for it.

I don't agree with / believe you. Sorry to respond so harshly but if this is "blatant cheating", prove it, because I don't believe it's obvious at all.

 

[Arlborn]

I saw only AIs following their personalities. Ye Khan will try to dominate by military, but wasnt that before also?
The thing, which I dont know if the AI actually knows, when you have too many units is TO USE THEM before they get obsolete. Yes, sure, your science goes down the hole during it, but you can pretty much get your money alone by conquering cities. And also, you will lose slowly your units in each city you conquer, so it balances a bit.
Sure, you probably will be behind tech anyway, but you should stop the war when your units are not effective anymore and delete most of them, or some, to get some money running.
Now, if you really did a good job of unit spamming + rushing your enemies, you will probably finish the war with AT LEAST twice the lands you had before. And it WILL pay itself with time

Now, I don't know if the AI thinks like that hehe.

 

[snipafist]

I like the AI standing more of a chance on the battlefield. What I don't like is spamming a ridiculous number of units that cost a ton of upkeep and sink the AI's long-term competitiveness. I wish there was some means of encouraging the AI to only spam up when it can afford to do so, or when a ripe opportunity presents itself (weak neighbor).

 

[Spearthrower]

Bast I totally agree.... even setting aside the Aggressive AI for a moment, the current normal setting AI invests too much in espionage and military upkeep losing a lot of ground on technology.

Obviously the answer is to turn up the difficulty, which in turn means that the old difficulties are less valid now with BTS.... basically, the game is easier even though the AI is generally better at conducting wars, because the AI is perfectly willing to stunt its technological growth in favour of other values.

Personally, I see the new AI as a counter to a specific type of player (generally known as the rusher) however, what Blake et al neglected is that not *everyone* plays like that, those who do not rely on military for expansion actually find the new BtS considerably easier comparative to Warlords and Vanilla.

I still enjoy it, but it's less of a competition to me unless I bow to the dictates of the new game and spend most of my time at war. "Beyond the Sword" clearly means chronologically - after the sword.... not that BtS was a counter to Warlords focus on war.

It's a bit of a shame in my opinion..... a little gain in one area has come at a great cost in others.

Still, it will all fall on deaf ears for now, but eventually I believe that people will start to see it.

Just weighing in to let you know that some people agree!

 

[Evil Twin]

I don't agree with / believe you. Sorry to respond so harshly but if this is "blatant cheating", prove it, because I don't believe it's obvious at all.

I really don't care whether you believe me or not; I know what I saw and what I saw is that the AI consistently has more units than it should have.

 

[Bast]

In every game that I've ever seen an AI start skyrocketing in power it has been because they are already the strongest civ in score and probably barely fall behind in tech anyway. (It was Zara Yaqob in a couple of my games).

Here are a few screenshots. Now that I think about it. Maybe he's not doing that bad in tech after all compared to the other AI. But why he needs to have such a big military when he could be spending those hammers and gold on research is what I'm talking about.

I'll tell you another funny thing. I'm Christian and I hold the Christian AP. But Suryavarman is the Resident. One turn, it came up with the vote "stop the war on Genghis Khan" and I voted yes but thought what war? He wasn't at war with anyone since Ramesses was elimiated from the game.

Turns out that turn he did declare war on Shaka but the AP forced peace the next turn. I thought that was hilarious. Between Suryavarman and me, there's no way he'll be able to put his military to use.

So with techs, he's researching Music in 1570AD. I think that's pretty bad. He could lose that military and get some techs instead. That's what I think.

The problem is the AI only plays one way. If you're Genghis Khan, you must SPAM units and beat the hell of everyone. It doesn't work like that in every game. No?

 

[Spearthrower]

Bast I have a question for you...

If Genghis is off the charts militarily, can you show us that he is falling behind in any way? It may be that he is falling behind in tech but I struggle to believe he'd be losing.

In every game that I've ever seen an AI start skyrocketing in power it has been because they are already the strongest civ in score and probably barely fall behind in tech anyway. (It was Zara Yaqob in a couple of my games).

From an abstraction, the simple fact that the AI is paying out so much to maintain a large force of rapidly obsoleting units is in itself proof of it falling behind.

What use will all those units be in 100 years time when it no longer has the money to upgrade nor the techs to allow any upgrades anyway?

As I said, I really believe that the new AI is a perfect counter to some players... and they are having a tougher time with the BtS AI... but please also believe me when I say that (with certain caveats) the new AI is MUCH easier for my style of play to beat.

I personally always try to rex to the max, then turtle and really push development hard while maintaining a middle range power rating.

Science kicks in hard in the Renaissance and I rapidly overtake my enemies (this is Vanilla/Warlords) - what is happening now is that I am grabbing an early lead and pretty much keeping it all the way through.... the "solution" provided by most people is: "Turn the difficulty up" - which is tantamount to saying that for me, compared to Vanilla/Warlords, BtS is actually easier as I need to play on harder difficulties to achieve the same challenge.

Do you see where I am coming from?

 

[PieceOfMind]

I think I underestimated what you meant by "off the charts". Looking at the power graph, his power doesn't look all that unsual at all. To compare it with the game I was talking about, where Zara Yaqob was seriously skyrocketing in power, you'll see why I'm laughing. I thought I was skyrocketing you see, but he was doing it even faster (steeper) which is why I was shocked. See the pic:

Spoiler :

I should mention that in this game, I won by space race, but Zara was a real contender in the race.

 

[Bast]

I think I underestimated what you meant by "off the charts". Looking at the power graph, his power doesn't look all that unsual at all. To compare it with the game I was talking about, where Zara Yaqob was seriously skyrocketing in power, you'll see why I'm laughing. I thought I was skyrocketing you see, but he was doing it even faster (steeper) which is why I was shocked. See the pic:

Spoiler :

I should mention that in this game, I won by space race, but Zara was a real contender in the race.

No this one isn't that bad but the other game he had a really steep one. Remember this is only 1570. You're at in the 1900's. In 400 years, it will be like that. Trust me, the same thing happened before and it will happen again.
He will spam.

 

[Photi]

I had to go from prince to monarch for the reasons spearthrower outlines above. i usually maintain tech parity now, unless mansa is in the game, and even in bts he is off the charts, at least that was my experience. if monty is a neighbor i will reload because i don't even want to find out how crazy that will be. if he has more units than he knows what to do with no doubt i will be toast.

 

[Charles Martel]

I agree with the OP. Military unit spam is totally boring, and makes the modern era unplayable. This was one of the worst aspects of the vanilla, and Blake's AI has only made it worse.

 

[PieceOfMind]

Do you see where I am coming from?

Yes, definitely. I wanted to ask Bast that quesiton because IMO people sometimes exaggerate the effect that unit spamming has on the AI. Because of the bonuses it receives, it is indeed able to maintain larger empires with few consequences.

And for the record, I don't agree that "the simple fact that the AI is paying out so much to maintain a large force of rapidly obsoleting units is in itself proof of it falling behind."

I don't think that's proof of anything. We can talk all we like but what I like to see is screenshots and gamesaves ie. hard evidence, like Bast so graciously supplied. I have a bit of faith in the BtS AI in understanding the finer points of maintenance costs. I have not yet experienced massive problems of AI stagnation.

Having said all that, I think I would agree there is some cause for concern in the current AI when it comes to stagnating in the era you're talking about. I'm mainly talking Agg AI. However I cannot really backup my views yet given the number of games I have played through.