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[GS] I'm not playing another Diplomatic Victory into some serious changes are made

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by leandrombraz, Feb 19, 2019.

  1. FenrisWolf456

    FenrisWolf456 Chieftain

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    While I can agree that it seems insurmountable to have most of the other civs voting against you when you get close to a Diplomatic Victory, I would rather that than the alternative that the civs all vote for themselves. A better fix would be to have more sources of victory points. While I think it's important to have the "vote for points" option, I found in my Canada game that I was ignoring the other voting propositions so that I could devote all my favour to winning the DV points. This seems to be rather against the entire idea of the World Congress. Having other routes to obtaining DV points would mean one could forgo the World Congress ones and pursue other votes while still vying for DV.

    And with multiple avenues for obtaining DV points, the number needed for victory should also change. Personally I believe it should be equal to the number of civilizations in the game, with a minimum of 10.

    I like this idea, but perhaps refined a bit more. Perhaps attaining Alliance Level 3 opens a diplomacy action that allows you to negotiate something like a Diplomatic Pact with the other civ, costing X amount of favour to award a victory point. I would probably base the cost on the current amount of DV points you already have, so it's more costly the closer you are to winning, as well as making it impossible to buy the final point you need for victory (or having it being extremely costly ... a victory should require effort). But perhaps an offset would be that the Pact civ will no longer vote against you in the Congress (and likewise you could not vote against them).

    To be fair, this is one of the easier Contests to participate in. And do remember you get the Silver rewards too. Nothing says that every contest needs to have near game breaking rewards to them. Plus, why not do both ... get the rewards for the Contest and build your ski resorts and run your science projects.
     
  2. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I do think FXS are very conservative with late game yields and as well as “negatives”. They do often make really good balancing decisions, and maybe that is actually a product of that conservatism.

    A good example is the recent change to Inquisitors and Spain - people have been discussing for ages how to buff Spain, no one had suggested anything like that, and then - BAM - FXS do that. Elegant. Awesome.

    I really think the core of diplomacy and the World Congress are really good.

    IMO, the key problems seem to be:

    1. People don’t like the two rounds of voting (resolution then target). That seems like something that could be fixed easily, e.g. just delete the second round and make effects more generic. Or just base the second round on the preference of whoever spent the most diplomatic favour - so, there’s still a risk supporting a particular resolution could back-fire, but you have some control if you spend enough coin.

    2. There needs to be more unilateral ways to win victory points. Not many more - just a few. I’m surprised Civ VI didn’t borrow from Catan and have a Civ version of “the biggest army” or “longest road” Cards (basically, in Catan you get a victory point by having the biggest army or building the longest road; but if anyone later builds a bigger army or longer road, you lose your victory point and it goes to the new leader). You could do the same in Civ, e.g. from the modern era, the Civ with the highest pop city or greatest gold per turn or most tourism get +1 victory point - but loses it if someone overtakes them.

    3. The congress needs to meet maybemore frequently in later eras.

    4. Flavour. The WC maybe needs to start only after some trigger (eg building a particular wonder), add a few more emergency types (given these are the player’s opportunity to initiate resolutions), and have more related wonders (eg UN Building).

    5. Earning diplo favour needs another small look. I really, really think there should be a Diplomatic Card that lets you generate Diplo Flavour from having Colonial Cities. It would be very flavourful and a really great buff for colonial focused Civs. Likewise, there should be a diplomatic card that lets you earn Diplomatic Favour from having Nuclear Weapons. More generally, FXS might need to look at how much favour you get from Allies and Suzerain.

    I really hope some of the patches really get into this stuff. There’s a lot of small stuff that would make the World Congress really really awesome.
     
  3. Uberfrog

    Uberfrog Deity

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    I just won a Diplomatic Victory. I was able to defeat the AI ultra bloc to get the final two points from the World Congress, but it took two sessions. I think the AI blew all their favour voting against me in the first one (22–41), so with 5,000 favour in the bank from running carbon capture projects in about ten cities for every one of those turns, I managed to win (33–16).

    I was triumphant, but it was a bit of a slog, and way more effort than a science victory (which I was due to win on the very same turn). They need to make WC sessions more frequent, and add many more non-voting ways to get points. Rewarding them for Tier 3 Alliances is a good idea, as that reflects actual in-game relationships. Emergencies also do not happen often enough to be a reliable source of points. I could only participate in one, in the Medieval Era. This is on the default Disaster Level 2. Global Warming had gone to its full level, but the hurricanes and tornadoes failed to trigger any humanitarian disasters at all, so that's something they also need to tweak. Final stage global warming should feel almost apocalyptic in terms of storms.
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2019
  4. ShunNakamura

    ShunNakamura Warlord

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    You know what bugs me about diplomatic victory? That it is a single victory. You would think a diplomatic victory would be an allied victory, which would take off some of the pressure from civs voting against you. Those in alliance would be willing to vote for themselves since it isn't a big deal if you win since they would win with you(they would still likely vote for themselves since they would no doubt want to be top dog of your alliance if they could manage it). Biggest problem then would be a player joining an allied victory when they 'should' lose simply by buttering up the AI on the edge of winning(this could be mitigated by making it harder to get into an alliance the closer to diplomatic victory someone is; for example requiring you to have been in an alliance and leveled it up prior to their chances of winning or otherwise proving yourself to them).
     
  5. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    I got burned out and didn't play yesterday, I'll see if I find the will to play today. In my game the AI spending favors doesn't seem to be enough, they recover too quickly since their votes are considerably cheaper than mine, it doesn't take a lot to become a menace again. I stole great works form canada to reduce his tourism, I'm conquering some Civs and liberating more CS to see if it does the trick. I'll have to either do the math before I vote or savescum to spend only the necessaire since I need to win 2 votes (I have 6, I'll get one from the accords, 2 from the vote, still missing 1).

    I had the highest CO2, I been with 0 CO2 for several turns now because of the sheer amount of carbon conversion I did.
     
  6. pgm123

    pgm123 Emperor

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    In your experience, the AI commits everything to winning the VP?
     
  7. FenrisWolf456

    FenrisWolf456 Chieftain

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    I think the issue is just the opposite. There aren't 2 rounds of voting ... everything is decided by your initial vote. I think it would be vastly improved with 2 rounds. The first vote decides whether the A or B option is to go into effect, and then the second round to decide who/what actually gets affected. This would allow for your voting to be more strategic.

    For example ... you really want to make your extra coffee resources count for amenities ... but that option fails. Currently, that means you wasted your time voting. But if the vote was two rounds, you could go "Well, can't get my extra coffee to count and now something will not provide amenities at all, lets see how to best leverage that ..." and you can cast your votes to try and hit one of your enemies.
     
    acluewithout and Sagax like this.
  8. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    I actually don't mind the voting that much, though I'll concede that no legislative body in human history has operated that way.
     
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  9. Mojo85

    Mojo85 Warlord

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    playing as Canada now and was planning on a Diplo victory but after seeing the slog and burn out going for it then mayble i'll go culture instead like 95% of my games
     
  10. Archon_Wing

    Archon_Wing Vote for me or die

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    Wait, but people can't vote if they're dead right?

    Just collect favor and murder everyone afterwards. Or it doesn't work like that right?
     
  11. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Emperor

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    So I just won my first diplo victory. Standard settings, I was Georgia, huge map, difficulty on King (5). It took an absurdly long time. I had completed both the tech and civics trees. I was constantly about 5 turns away from winning cultural victory and was literally giving my great works away for free. I had nearly 4k diplomatic favor at the last vote. I tried to save Seasteads and Carbon Recapture for my last points as has been suggested, but the voting sessions are so far apart that it was impossible. I had so much DF that I could just brute force vote myself each time; I acutally only put about 100 DF into myself except in the last vote where I used all I had and the total opposition was less than half of my resource. I had been Suzerain with pretty much everybody the whole game though. I probably could have won Religious Victory if I hadn't put all my apostles into converting city states but I wanted to avoid other victory types.

    My question is, do contests make voting sessions more spread apart? For example nobel prize kept coming up, causing it to be 30 turns until the next voting session. If I had killed nobel pzie, would it have been only 10 turns to the next session? It certainly seems like the contests were delaying the world congress votes too much.
     
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  12. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    They vote for themselves if you have less than 8 points. Once you got 8 points, you're flagged as winning and they vote mostly against you, if not all.

    The time between votes is always the same (30 turns) but I do think the nobel prize made things harder by delaying the climate change accord, which give one diplo point.
     
  13. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I lost 2 "final" diplomatic victory votes in a row. I don't get it. I had 9700 diplomatic favor, all the people added up had around 3800 diplomatic favor, so why am I losing?

    Maybe I'll do one more round, maybe I can win that one. But it's not looking good. I can't seem to win this thing. I got climate accords, but that will only put me to 9.
     
  14. Sagax

    Sagax Emperor

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    Every additional vote from the same leader costs exponentially more. One leader committing 10 votes will spend more favor on it than 5 opposing leaders committing 2 votes each for the same 10 votes total.
     
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  15. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Deity

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    I guess that makes sense, it was cheaper for them to contribute many amounts of smaller votes than for me to contribute one huge vote.

    I finally got it the next session. I think it took 3 or maybe it was 4 "final" votes with me at 8 or 9 diplomatic victory points. I wouldn't have got this if I wasn't at King. Maybe Emperor I could have done it. I was playing as Sweden which helped. Cultural victory off of course, or I never would have been able to do this. I think I had around 11,000 diplomatic favor at the end. If I had been at 7 votes, it would have been easier. I could have got the vote to 9 easier I believe. And then got climate accords or something to give me 10. The timing just didn't work out.

    My screenshot. This was a large map, so more challenging. But I got it done. I couldn't fit everyone in the screenshot, Persia is cut off at the bottom, he voted against me with 9 votes. Funny thing is Hojo always voted for himself no matter what.

    Spoiler :


    Some things to note:

    Plenty of spying, getting caught on spying (I didn't build the intelligence agency because I built my unique building as Sweden) and fulfilling those promises gives favor
    Completing the civics tree and getting future civics also gives more favor. Go crazy with theater squares, even if not playing Sweden. Finish the civics tree early.
    Disable Cultural victory (unless you don't plan on using those great people you generate with all those theater squares)
    Policy card gives more favor
    Never going to war and having alliances most of the game gives favor
    Being aggressive in the Suzerain game gives more favor. I didn't even use spy tactics in my game. The AI was all concentrating most of their envoys with Geneva which I just let go and concentrated on the others. I had 9/10 Suzerains. And I was pretty lazy regarding city state quests this game. Usually I pay more attention to them.
    Great people- as Sweden. Factories and Universities especially, but I built plenty of theater squares as well which give GP points to 3 different GP.
    Hoarding favor: I never used more than my 1 free vote except for maybe 1 time my whole game. I think I only sold it once in the very early game.
    Tier 4 government- gives extra favor
    I didn't get my Seastead tech until near the end after getting to 8 diplo votes the first time. Shortly after I got an aid request before my first final vote that I lost.
    I got 2 points from Statue of Liberty and Seastead tech.
    Lastly, you don't need to go all in every diplomatic vote. In my game I had Persia voting B where everyone else was voting A. I only need to put in more votes than the highest A voter. Only my final votes I went all in.


    Final thoughts, don't think I'll do this with anyone other than Canada or Sweden. Although on second thought, I don't think I'll ever do this victory type again. :D Certainly not on a large map.
     
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  16. acluewithout

    acluewithout Deity

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    I didn’t express myself well. I mean there are two decisions - the A/B decision, and then specific target. Yes, having both determined by the first vote - at least as currently implemented - is rubbish. I don’t think having two rounds of actual voting is a good idea though - it would be very tedious having to go through two rounds of voting every 30 turns.
     
  17. drubell

    drubell Prince

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    This is one of the most depressing screenshots from a game I've ever seen.
     
  18. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    I dream of a world with more Hojo and less of everybody else.

    Speaking of that, I just noticed that Dido is also always voting for herself in my game. So some leaders seems to vote for themselves no matter what, it's just not enough. I thought of conquering her, that would have been a mistake.
     
  19. Sagax

    Sagax Emperor

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    I suggested in the Civ 5 vs Civ 6 World Congress thread: what if we just adapt the system used currently for emergencies? Everyone gets to pick one general proposal one turn before WC, the mot picked proposal gets to the floor for target selection and voting with favor.

    Many people think two rounds will be tedious... well that’s because the current system is tedious in itself. We don’t have to literally do current voting system x2 if we are to break it into two stages.
     
  20. leandrombraz

    leandrombraz Emperor

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    Is that... a miracle??

    20190223140641_1.jpg

    Funny thing is that he was the next on my "you can't vote if you don't exist" list. Now I only need to win the next vote in 14 turns, which I'll be baffled if I lose, then wait for the aid request to be over.

    Edit: I did the math. If Dido decide to vote against me this time, it still possible that I might lose the vote. 20.000+ favors and two conquered Civs later and this still might go south.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2019

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