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I'm really enjoying naval warfare

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by konokono, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. konokono

    konokono Chieftain

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    Playing my first island plates map as Norway and I'm really enjoying how easy naval warfare is once you have frigates

    Fast movement and lack of terrain penalties means no more getting shot at as you painfully try to get in position. Just sail up to the city and fire away! It also helps that the AI hardly builds naval.
     
  2. jasper

    jasper Chieftain

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    Coastal raiding was a great addition. Gives melee ships something to do. Makes coasts much more dangerous to leave unprotected. People have a harder time ignoring sea.
     
    Prester John 2 likes this.
  3. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

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    It's too bad the AI still has no clue in hell how to compete at any of this.
     
    Prester John 2 likes this.
  4. TomKQT

    TomKQT Prince

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    Thinking about it - I'm not really sure I've ever seen an AI ship perform coastal raiding (while pillaging see resources and harbor districts is quite common). Is it just me?
     
  5. AntSou

    AntSou Prince

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    I've seen Norway do it.
     
  6. afeld

    afeld Chieftain

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    Mele ships can not coastal raid unless you are playing as Norway.
     
  7. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    I've seen barbs do it, or rather I've seen the notifications that their invisible naval raiders did it.
     
  8. Stringer1313

    Stringer1313 King

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    i find naval combat too easy. ranged ships are far too powerful. they are like seige weapons except their ranged is 2, they have a million move points, there are no terrain problems, and they have tons more space to maneuver. you can kill cities and land units way too easily.

    my suggestion is to only allow melee ships to attack land targets, with a hard limit of 1 range. or, give all ranged ships 1 range. or make shorelines like forests in that it reduces range. or dramatically weaken their damage to land targets.
     
    Depravo likes this.
  9. Tech Osen

    Tech Osen Emperor

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    Agree with Stringer, it's too easy. You'd think the AI would have an easier time on sea in comparison to land for 1upt but they don't.
     
  10. ShakaKhan

    ShakaKhan King

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    Also really enjoy naval combat, although yes, due to AI programming it's even more one-sided than land combat at any difficulty level (D-day would have been a lot easier if they used civilization rules!) Island plates are a fun map for this reason, but it also adds interesting tactics for land based games, establishing beachheads on their coastal cities while your land invasion comes on another front.
    One annoyance that comes up every time though- When the AI stupidly decides to plant a city 1 tile away from any coast and you have to wait for a single one of your land units to embark and make the journey all the way to the target.
     
  11. konokono

    konokono Chieftain

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    I'm not sure naval combat needs a nerf though given how situational and map dependent it can be. also I'd be curious to hear from any history buffs here whether it's realistic for naval bombardment to be so op during its time
     
  12. Sostratus

    Sostratus Emperor

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    The frigate is, compared to its peers, by far the best of the naval ranged units; although even then, the numbers would not appear to suggest it's an absolute death machine. When fighting fellow renaissance units at 55 :c5strength: strength, a frigate is in a position that's approx. +5:c5rangedstrength: compared to what a crossbowman would face in the middle ages (loosely str 45 units) and while it has the same bombard strength as a bombard, naval ranged units have a hidden 50% penalty against walls of any type (the blue bar.) The real advantage is they are mobile and can quickly mass fire on a coastal target.
    But battleships are actually in a weaker position - while they fight infantry just as effectively as frigates v muskets, artillery has +10 bombard strength over it, and tanks exist, giving cities +10 extra garrison power over infantry, and most importantly: urban defenses. The jump between a frigate shooting a city with ancient walls at near parity garrison strength and a battleship shooting an urban defenses city with much higher garrison strength is enormous. While humans often get battleships before these factors come into play, if you try a late game assault using say, missile cruiser fleets, they barely make a dent in an info era city's defenses.

    In my estimation of longing for more relevant naval play and trying to balance the ships myself, the ultimate issue lies in the lack of dedicated counter play for land armies. Either the navy is worthless and at best a nuisance (see the Quadrireme) or it's overtuned and completely curb stomps all land units. Because the only answer to a strong navy is another strong navy, or an air force - assuming you care about sea control in the first place. Siege weapons are clearly intended to be something that can strike back at ships, but they are frail; a bombard hits a frigate just as hard as another frigate, and costs the same 20 niter, only it has a lot of mobility downsides; so why not build yourself a frigate with the niter and garrison that?

    Continuing from above, the one thing we are missing is something that represents the fact that a major deterrent to ships for a long time was coastal guns, which could be bigger, better armored, and outrange the naval vessel. (As they say, A Ship's a fool to fight a fort!) If this came in the form of some kind of city center building to boost the ranged attack of that city vs ships, it would be fine. That way, players would have a method to resist some naval assaults if they invested a little production without having to resort to a huge naval buildup themselves. At the same time, it wouldn't be mobile, so you couldn't use it to counter a defending navy.

    From a historical standpoint, at least for the battleship era, naval shore bombardment was really dependent on what they were trying to shoot at. The idea that battleships could level entire cities so soldiers could just walk in never really happened, and as seen in Okinawa, if you can't see the bunkers, you aren't going to hit them. But I can't think of any examples where any indirect bombardment from ships, artillery, or planes knocked out entrenched defenses by themselves.
    However, naval fire could suppress coastal guns from firing at landing ships, like at Normandy, and once the troops got a foothold, they could help the ships correct their fire and guide it inland for much more devastating effect. Once you stop trying to shoot at soldiers protected by giant bunkers, things go much better: against troops in the open, like those counterattacking your beachhead, your giant floating artillery battery might as well be divine intervention (with spotters to correct fire). Keep in mind that field artillery is generally a lot smaller than battleship cannons- compare a classic 155mm field gun to a 16" (410mm) naval cannon. I recall a story of a US destroyer fighting against a dozen german tanks on the shore at Salerno and reducing them to scrap. I don't think there are many examples of "battleships vs cities" except some late pacific war stuff. While they work, they are not an economical choice over ground artillery or bombers.

    So, yes, naval gunfire is completely OP against exposed land units in the open, although this is exactly why massive bunker networks were made by japan and to prepare against the Normandy landings - there's no way to hold a coast against naval bombardment without it.
     
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  13. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    One nice naval bombartment story: During allied landings in Italy, Germans tried a counterattack at some battle but allies were saved by massed bombardment from warships. Cant remember the battle but one of the ships was HMS Warspite.
     
  14. Abaxial

    Abaxial Prince

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    The restriction on naval power is maps with not much sea.

    My favourite tactic is to assemble a task force of, say, three battleships and two ironclads/destroyers. The melee ships act as "spotters" for the battleships, which stand off at three hexes range and blow a city to smithereens, at which point an ironclad sails in and takes it. I recall one game when an AI Germany assembled such a force and sailed it towards me, and I thought I was going to paid back in the same coin. But no, it sailed away again without firing a shot.
     
  15. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Have an armada of sea dogs, place battleships and ironclads protectively around the target, damage it and then capture with the sea dogs. Even taken a nuke sub once.
    Playing with Brazil in the game is great.
     
  16. crouchy

    crouchy Chieftain

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    It would be cool if you could use your navy to blockade another Civ. I guess this would be hard given traders can magically embark and disembark almost anywhere on the map, and don't have to head for a port.
     
  17. konokono

    konokono Chieftain

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    This would be cool, but generally speaking I think international trade needs to be made MUCH more important, especially for later eras. International trade routes should straight up dominate domestic ones, in terms of food, production, AND gold, and should even give amenities. There should be a feeling that your current population size and production is dependent on your international trade routes.
     
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  18. Scaramanga

    Scaramanga Brickhead

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    I can't validate but my assumptions are:
    -ranged naval units have zone of control and can beseige coastal cities
    -traders must embark/disembark from harbours or city centers but pillaged harbours still work
     
  19. crouchy

    crouchy Chieftain

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    You could do it so that traders are forced to embark / disembark in harbors, maybe with some nifty trade upgrade for seaports.

    But I think you'd also have to incentivize trading via sea vs over land, even when there is a land route available. Maybe by dramatically decreasing the round trip time for sea trading.

    I'd also love to see something regarding land borders with customs posts or something, or specified entry points, since the way it works today is really unrealistic (cross the border wherever you want), but this seems really complicated to figure out.

    It's a big ask but I'd love to be able to blockade and sanction other civs, so their production + food takes a hit, without actually going into open war. Loyalty + some sort of propaganda mechanism to turn cities, cause unrest, protests etc.
     
  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    All correct except disembark/embark from harbours
     

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