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I'm still not convinced about Cruisers

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Gidoza, Mar 25, 2019.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Because the issue isn’t a single cruiser, it’s a fleet of cruisers versus an enemy that cannot retaliate. If you reduce the RCS and CS of individual cruisers, you increase the number you need to achieve the same effective firepower while decreasing the survivability of individual cruisers. It’s just a cruiser tax, because the issue isn’t raw power, it’s the unilateral nature of cruiser power.

    G
     
  2. Omen of Peace

    Omen of Peace Prince

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    Agreed - thanks for laying out the explanation. That's why I'd like to see this tried first.

    I disagree that -1 move for just one unit will slow down the game in a perceptible way.
     
  3. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Cruisers already have 4 movement base.
     
  4. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    That's what I get for building great lighthouses, I guess.
     
  5. Gidoza

    Gidoza King

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    Well, getting ocean movement for Frigates is a big deal. Do they need +1 movement too?
     
  6. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Frigates to me are one of the best balances in the game. Very strong but with very strong counters, its good speed, decent damage....but nothing so strong it ever feels OP. I don't think a single change is needed to the unit.
     
    vyyt and phantomaxl1207 like this.
  7. Gidoza

    Gidoza King

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    Changing topic essentially so you can flame me for this - would Galleass make sense with 4 movement even if it matches Caravel because a Caravel has better mobility due to the ocean anyways? In any case, I appreciate the feedback on the Frigate and it sounds reasonable to me.


    Now back on topic...yeah, -1 Range on Cruisers seems like the best place to start.
     
  8. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    The question is, would frigates be underpowered if they were to move at 3 tiles per turn? Don't forget that there are other ingame movement enhancers, that they can seal oceans and are overall stronger.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    The default assumption at this point in the mod should be “you don’t change unless there is a problem”.

    What is the current problem with frigates that warrant a change?
     
    vyyt likes this.
  10. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Here I think a better case can be made. The galleas lack of ocean mobility is a big deal at this point in the game, I personally rarely use them myself. A speed boost could be a good bump to give them a greater use.

    But I’d want other opinions on that to see if that is just my play style
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  11. mikes61293

    mikes61293 Chieftain

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    I agree that the battleship should be brought back to refrigeration. It's current placement on electronics makes it a pain to develop a well balanced fleet in the atomic era. Ideally battleships should be the dominate ship until aircraft carriers get up and running.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  12. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I already laid out my overall vies on naval units elsewhere, but for me galleasses are the least useful naval unit, and it's not close. Walls are usually the point where dromons quit being effective against cities. Galleasses never have their city-bombardment moment, and of course can't stand up against caravels very well. Anything would help them, but I think adding one movement that can only be used in shallow water isn't the best solution. I'd give them more punch, or better defenses.
     
  13. Bhawb

    Bhawb Prince

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    I can confirm about Galleasses being weak. They don't harass land units well since they will take a lot of retaliatory damage, and a slightly promoted Caravel can snipe Galleasses all day. I don't bother building an offensive navy until Frigates because Galleasses are just so weak they can't support any naval invasions; you're better off securing your continent while waiting for good naval units. I'm honestly not sure +1 movement will be enough, but I do think it is a good first step, and then leave slight buffs to CS so they can't just get one-shot by a Caravel quite so easily.
     
  14. lunker

    lunker Warlord

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    Why were naval ranged units changed to skirmisher type units in the first place? Honest question.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  15. vyyt

    vyyt Emperor

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    Somethng about AI. I think the skirmisher type is easier to handle for AI.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2019
    Rhys DeAnno likes this.
  16. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Because otherwise they controlled too much land territory.
     
  17. Gidoza

    Gidoza King

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    This response is not processing for me and I don't understand it. Could you elaborate?
     
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  18. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    The AI didn't perform well on the ocean before the change.
     
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  19. tu_79

    tu_79 Deity

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    Before the change, all ranged naval where range 2, then 3. Even more with promotions. With such range, they could fire over units 3 to 4 tiles inland. Indirect fire was very useful.
    With the change to a skirmisher model, ranged naval is more useful in the seas (can fire and retreat), but it controls less land territory.
     
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  20. Gidoza

    Gidoza King

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    Gotcha thank you. Yes I like the Skirmisher model better.
     

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