[Immersioneers] 'To Boldly Go': The first Immersioneers test-game(s)

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Multiplayer' started by stiiknafuulia, Oct 22, 2016.

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  1. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

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    UPDATE: Due to the chaos and confusion resulting from not knowing everyone's Steam names, as well as a general lack of players online, we'll all be joining my game (#1) for now. I'll whisper everyone and we'll see how many people show up, then start up game #2 if necessary.
     
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  2. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

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    @Yves-Laurent: Please say 'yes' to the invite, we're waiting for you in the game lobby ;)
     
  3. LzPrst

    LzPrst Chieftain

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    @Magnive @Uppercut83
    We have the game up in lobby if you want to join. Feel free to add me as friend on steam and I'll invite you :)
    my steam name is zeteacher (lzprst)
     
  4. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

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    @Everyone: We'll start in 20 minutes... There's still room for more players, just go online and I'll invite you! Sorry about the chaotic nature of this join-up... It's half my fault, half Steam's. Next time I'll try to be more organized, fwiw.
     
  5. LzPrst

    LzPrst Chieftain

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    Yeay! Great success! Took an hour to get started, played for 7 (really???) hours, got to turn 150ish with a minimum of trouble really :) Great success all things considered.

    Some suggestions for rule adjustments
    1. City states can be attacked/conquered at a certain tech level (say when you have a tier 2 government)
    2. When making treaties, a 30 turn maximum is sensible, that way, if your co-treatymaker does something naughty, you're not stuck to the deal for 78 more turns :p
    3. Remember to chew bubblegum when kicking ass ;)
     
  6. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

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    Ok, the first Immersioneers game is over! :D Thank you to all participants; it was certainly a fun experience, if also a bit trying at times (I'm sorry, @Yves-Laurent, for settling so close to you; I was not aware that Sparta was so close or I would've settled Bergen a bit further away). Some observations and conclusions that can be drawn from them:

    -- The map was too big, and the vast expanses of sea between players did no favors for it. They allowed a few players to build most wonders and spam their islands full of cities almost without risk, while others had to contend with suspicious neighbors. Later on, they'd make invasions prohibitive in terms of micromanagement. For this reason, a Small Pangaea map is a better choice for next game, imo.

    -- The rule about City State conquest must be altered! They will hog the best city spots and spam endless amounts of unremovable units over the players' lands; this is simply not acceptable! As a result, the rules might be amended as follows: You may conquer City States (they count against your conquest limit) after adopting a Tier II government. You may not steal City State units, however. I wish we could simply disable CSs altogether, but as we cannot do it, this is the best solution atm.

    -- In the mid-to-late game, trade route reassignments begins to hog more and more of effective play-time. I'm not sure what to do about this, tbh... Trade routes are op anyways, so maybe we could simply ban their use (or limit it)? It will have to be discussed some more before the next game. I'd rather spam units and get to fight with them than spam trade routes and get to spam more of them, tbh...

    -- A player leaving before the game ends will have severe consequences. Imo, the conquest of their lands should be prohibited, because it will give a great edge to the one who does it (with the AI being so incompetent).

    -- Apparently there is a mod that is popular in mp atm (the 'Fruitymod', or somesuch). It's from the maker of the NQ mod for Civ V, which was kind of an mp standard. I will look into it and we may well opt to use it in the next game.

    That's it for now... I may post some more thoughts in the morning. Everyone else is encouraged to post their observations as well; it can only lead to a better game the next time around! Thank you again; it's been a pleasure playing with you, gentlemen (even if I was a bit of a scoundrel, myself :p). :):goodjob:

    EDIT: Half-ninja'd by LzPrst I see... Oh well, it's no big deal. A 30 turn max for peace treaties seems reasonable, but even then renewing them might be too tempting, leading to less conflict than would be preferable. On a small Pangaea I think there might be more wars simply due to a lack of space though, so it might not be a problem after all.

    EDIT2: We played for 7 hours and were only half-way through the game... :crazyeye: I guess people play on Online speed for a reason! But to me, it's simply too fast. Some other solution must be found, imo. It might be as simple as agreeing to play for a certain amount of time, and then simply declaring a winner by majority vote (or some other, more objective means).
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2016
  7. LzPrst

    LzPrst Chieftain

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    Haaaaayyiiiiaa! Ninja-style! Japan ftw :)

    But yes, I agree that 7 hours was a long time for 150 turns. The game isn't very well optimized with long loading times between turns even when all players have ended turn. Also, the lack of ability to muck around with your civ, checking citizen placement etc, after you have hit end turn doesn't help. There is very little to do about this. The 5 minute turn timer was mostly shortened, not sure if some players were inefficient or not. However, occasionally having a few extra minutes to choose religion tenets or new government policies was quite useful I felt. I think next time will be 7-8 players on small map, this will force more conflict, and naturally with fewer cities, there will be fewer trade routes, so that won't suck up all the time either.
     
  8. TeraHammer

    TeraHammer Prince

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    Was great fun! Looking forward to next game!

    I loved playing trade-happy Cleopatra to gain sympathy from everyone. From this immersion point of view, I strongly argue to keep it in - if it's not your cup of tea, then don't use them as much. Go ahead and take your time micromanaging the empire you want to build (or wars you want to wage). With playing more we learn to become more efficient also.

    Everyone in a diplo game like this is a winner :-D - just have fun and play civilization in an unique way :-D Win!
     
  9. TeraHammer

    TeraHammer Prince

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    Good points!
     
  10. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

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    I can't ignore trade routes though; they're too powerful for that. While I do like to role-play, there's enough of 'power-gamer' in me that I simply can't force myself to deliberately make suboptimal choices like that. But ofc if others want to keep trades route without any restrictions, it's not the end of the world.
     
  11. LzPrst

    LzPrst Chieftain

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    20161030180850_1.jpg 20161030181323_1.jpg
    Just a bit of post-game discussion. So here was my start, and basically my entire civ, since the citystates surrounded me. Any comments on the settling (shizuoka would have been better settled one step east, but I hadn't explored well enough and Iron wasn't on the map at the time)
     
  12. ManojTheKing

    ManojTheKing Chieftain

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    Well I owned an entire continent.. :p with almost 12 cities.. It was fun keeping a big island to yourself but unfortunately had to drop out of the game as it was 2:00AM for me and I really needed some sleep.
    Sorry for that, but I request you to plan games a bit early if possible.. like 3 or 4 hour early than the last game so that I will be IN till the end.


    BTW, I AM SO EAGER FOR OUR NEXT GAME :).

    Stii, Please let me know when is the next game, I enjoy playing with you guys. :)
     
  13. Haig

    Haig Deity

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    How was the online game technics-wise? Any bugs or hang-ups?
     
  14. LzPrst

    LzPrst Chieftain

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    Very little issues. Rivnend disconnected once or twice, I think, aside from that it was pretty hitch free. Though the turns took look even when everyone finished their turn.
     
  15. markoivezic

    markoivezic Chieftain

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    So overall it was enjoyable experience. Cant wait to join you guys. 7 hours for 150 turns and on quick speed. Thats bit longish and quick speed is really fast. That definitely rules out modern era combats right? Which leaves to continuing the game week after week or sometimes starting at different eras, right?

    what I managed to see is that time between turns is bit slugish. Is that due to the host upload speed(s) or you think it's some different reason. Who knows Firaxis might speed that up over time. How did dynamic turns turned out when you go to combat? Who gets first (upper hand) on movement there? does it goe based on who joined the game sooner?
     
  16. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

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    I don't think saving the game and continuing a week later is a viable option... It could only work with a dedicated group of loners (no social life outside of video games), not with people who have responsibilities irl. Even if, say, 5 out of 6 would show up, it'd be a bummer for that 6th missing player to be dropped out of the game (as obviously he'd fall too far behind to come back after the AI's mismanagement of his Civ over one play session). Imo, we must aim to shorten the games, so that one game can be finished in one sitting. If the 7 hours would've been the *total* length of our game, I think that would have been ideal. I'm showing my age (I guess), in that I was beginning to get a bit of a head-ache from staring at the screen and concentrating for such a long period of time, with very little breaks. So for that reason as well, 7 hours is a good 'max' play time imo.

    @ManojTheKing: Keep in mind that we had (or were supposed to have, at least; I can't recall if he showed up) a player from the US as well. Unfortunately, it's impossible to accommodate the wishes of players from more than two continental time-zones at once; someone will always have to suffer from a too early or too late play-time. The best thing to do is to mention early on in the pre-game thread as to what time the game will likely be played at, so that people know to prepare in advance, or to drop out if the time really doesn't work for them. (As I am the proverbial loner nerd, I can always stretch the hours as needed, so that's good to keep in mind. ;))

    @markoivezic: Unfortunately, due to the too-powerful nature of unbreakable alliances, as well as the realization that early war mostly serves to weaken the belligerents while the peaceful players zoom ahead in development, there was only one conflict in our game, and even that was a misunderstanding that ended before it even really begun. We didn't use sequential war turns in our game though, so it wouldn't have shed any light on that even if we had engaged in more wars. When we tested that setting, we only had three players and the game froze on us after a small while of playing, but it seemed to work by dividing the players into two 'blocks', i.e. those at war and those at peace, and then assign the warring players' turns sequentially, while for others it was 'business as usual'. Another test-game with more players would be needed to truly figure out how it works, though.

    I'm actually partial to using this setting (sequential war turns), and having only 4-6 players in the game. That way, there'd be enough time to wait for the war turns, and people would have more time to role-play as well, without the chat being flooded with a barrage of talk and 'hurry up, slowpokes!' type of statements. With a smaller number of players, they'd have to be very dedicated, though, because if even two players left in the middle of the game, it would suddenly become much less interesting.

    @LzPrst: Oh wow! :eek: You truly were hemmed in by the City States! :lol: Luckily, this sort of issue can be solved by the proposed amendment to the conquest rules ('may conquer City States with a Tier II government').

    @Everyone: As I have found out about an extraneous map editor (a program called 'Hexographer'), I could start crafting a world map specifically for use in our games. It would have the advantage of balanced starting locations (and a better and better balance as I develop it ;)), and the adding of 'historical feel' by playing on a real map of the Earth. The map size is a bit of a question mark atm, as ideally, I'd want the map to work in single-player as well. I welcome any ideas or suggestions as to the size and shape of the map, as well as any other attributes (I'll reserve final judgement in all cases, ofc).

    EDIT: As to when we could have our second Immersioneer game, I'm tied up on this weekend, but the next one is again free for me. I'll revise the rules with the few things that have been noted so far, and then we can start thinking about the setting for the second game. Ofc, in the meantime, if anyone wants to play an 'unofficial' game (so to speak), just by inviting people on Steam, they're free to do it ofc. (It seems that Stroganov has already done this with some folks. We've been talking across each other a little bit, as he favors Steam for communications, while I favor CFC; but it doesn't really matter in the grand scheme of things, as it's all a casual and fun experience here. :D)
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
  17. MaximusPlatypus

    MaximusPlatypus O.O

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    Hello all. This sounds very interesting to me, I would like to sign up for one of these games in the future.
    steam name MaximusPlatypus
     
  18. fickle

    fickle Chieftain

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    Well, I would like to continue the previous game with anyone who is able/willing this weekend on the principle I like to finish games.

    I'm a US player, although East Coast so the time wasn't a huge issue for me. (especially as I have to get up early for work during the week anyway so I'm used to it) We could push it up a couple hours and I would be ok, although that would be an issue for western players.

    The ONLY way we can fit in the time-span listed is going to be to use the online speed, and I also recommend a slightly later start age ( we got about 150 turns. On online speed a game still takes 200-300 turns, so we would want to start in at least medieval if we reasonably wanted to "finish" games. This is because for the SCI victory, we HAVE to make it through the tech tree, for the culture victory the major, and biggest boosts are from later on.

    Another point of interest and value of this, is that it lets religion victories become possible. Typically religion is only possible in smaller, short games. BOTH of which seem like options we are looking to press simply for the need/want to be able to finish a game.

    Yet another perk of this play-style is that it may* (subject to experimentation and testing) even the playing ground of difficulty of the various victories while also even the playing ground for several of the current known exploits/super powerful factions. This is because we are past the most powerful aspect of Scythia (although the gold conversion is still annoying, needing to build districts "late" and play catch-up with the more expensive units could minimize this) and Germany may be evened out (hansa while cheaper, being available at the same time as everyone else and having little else built in your city, AND wanting settlers, all helps even it out)

    We could of course focus on our score, use standard speed, normal maps. ban Scythia and fight horribly over wonders and early game land and see who claims the highest score at the end of the game, but if THAT was the focus, I would rather get a mod that ends the game at 100 turns, and equals out ancient/classical power through the civs.

    Edit: PS, I'll add you on friends to try and get you in a game if we throw one up this weekend maximus
     
  19. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

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    I forgot to mention it, but the map size is also a major factor in terms of finishing time. 10+ cities are simply not manageable after you get traderoutes, at least not without a mod that fixes the abysmal UI somewhat. The 'fruitymod' that someone mentioned seems to minimize pop-ups at least, and its main purpose is to ease multiplayer in various ways (similar to NQmod for Civ V).

    I'm not really that keen on finishing our first game, tbh. It was getting to be an awful slog, with too many cities and trade routes for an octopus to manage comfotably, let alone a human being. :lol: If people want to do it, be my guest; keep in mind though that the game will be heavily skewed in favor of those who can take over the lands of the absent players (another reason why continuing a game when someone's left is a bit of a doomed proposition).

    I'm not really a fan of Online speed in any way, shape or form. It's just too fast for me. Ideally, imo, there'd be a speed between that and Quick speed, that speeded up the game by something like 60 or 70 percent (it's 100 for Online and 33 for Quick, iirc). Civ VI is supposed to be very moddable, and I am studying programming atm (although just starting)... Maybe we'll end up making a mod for these games down the line, as well as a map. Time will tell. For now though it's best to stick to the the default rules, as we're still learning how everything works. I'm up for trying the sequential war turns in the next game, though, to see if it works with a bigger group of players. If it turns out that it doesn't, well, we'll just have to agree to limit wars somewhat (in that game I mean).

    EDIT: I've never started a game of Civ in anything other than the Ancient age. The idea just somehow seems so jarring, as you're founding cities and yet you have all these gears 'n gadgets available! :crazyeye: I also like starting anything from scratch and slowly working my way up, making all the decisions on the way; if the computer has 'played until Medieval' for me, a big part of the appeal of Civ is lost for me. I'm not saying I'd outright refuse to play such a game (it might be fun as a change of pace), but I'd rather not have it become the default form of play, either. Some other solution to the 'speeding up' issue should be sought, imo.
     
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2016
  20. stiiknafuulia

    stiiknafuulia King

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    Before I forget again -- we should note down everyone's Steam names in preparation for the second game. Mine's Vesir85. I'll hunt down the names that have already been mentioned in this thread... But just in case, everyone should state their Steam nick asap, so that I can put them on a list for the next game (and all future ones).

    It seems that on Steam, one can edit the user names that show to you, so that the name appears as 'Steamname(CFC name)', which is extremely handy for keeping track of things without alt-tabbing constantly. Everyone who plans on hosting games should do this for everyone in the group.
     

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