[BTS] Immortal - Bismarck is wondering is Currency the right choice!

[Eagle777]

This is an Immortal game in the ancient times. Just passed the first 100 turns.
I did nothing after the screenshots except spread my archers a bit more.

I seem to have a crazy good piece of land. Bureau capital is especially nice.
I am expansive and industrious, so cheaper granaries, workers, forges and wonders are of relevance. Harbors won't play as big of a role.
I want to complete the land-block, backfill, get a few wonders, build up for the foreseeable future.

Neighbours
Toku and Mansa don't like each other, but Izzy is in between them.
Everyone's a Buddhist. Pericles is who knows where.

I have 8 archers, currently fogbusting.
I nabbed the Stonehenge.

Northern parts

My land

Backfill land

Technologies
I am thinking of going Currency to fund my expanding, while expanding more.
The rest will have to fit into the overall strategy, below.

Cities and land
Capital just pumping (chopping) Settlers and Workers for now. New cities get granaries first, then typically Libraries and/or Forges.
One city will be just food and mines, will get Granary and Rax and pump nothing but units. Maybe two even , seeing as how I have a good place for IW and another for HE close by.

Demographics

Strategies
This is what interests me the most - What exactly are my strategy options and how do I pick one?
What are typical options in a spot/age like this one, where I won't have to go to war unless someone else picks a fight?
I assume I'll get buddhism soon, Mansa isn't the one to pick a fight, and Toku will hopefully have one path to my cities only, so most troops just get parked there.

I tend to go CoL to try to trade it quite often. Metal Casting will be good, too, to trade and to get the forges.
But, don't I want Aest/Literature and Calendar, too?

It seems that strategies are dictated the most by the Tech path (as techs enable units and units enable strats), and thus by tech trades, as well.
So what do you research next, what do you beeline afterwards (if anything), and what's your overall play?

Do you go for the Blocker City and then straight away for Marble/Fur city, and then a few other wonders (GLib pops to mind, but maybe some others like Parthenon or Mausollos), seeing as I'm IND and I can secure a good piece of land?

My preferences are not warring as it is time-consuming (kind of ironic seeing as I'm playing a game like Civ4! ) and not having too much overlap between my cities. It also would have been nice to get cities working Berling cottages now, but I wanted more land instead.

 

[Eagle777]

One thing that popped to mind, while screenshotting, was that I should definitely put the blocker city one square lower. On a hill!

Here is the save, I use BAT.

 

[krikav]

So many questions arise by this. Difficult to provide good help.
Much easier if you start a game at T0 and ask for advice more frequently.

But as it is... Currency is often a good tech to get early on.
Seeing the tech screen, I would be tempted to put a turn or two into monarchy or CoL and hopefully get the rest from Mansa in a trade.

 

[Fish Man]

My preferences are not warring as it is time-consuming (kind of ironic seeing as I'm playing a game like Civ4! ) and not having too much overlap between my cities. It also would have been nice to get cities working Berling cottages now, but I wanted more land instead.

With all due respect - this is why you are struggling in your position here. I'm not judging you for your playstyle preference, but if you aren't already aware already, reversing these two habits alone will lead you to a far more success, especially on the higher difficulties.

 

[Fippy]

I can understand a no wars mentality, Civ4 also shines in peaceful gameplay, but i will be honest with you..
what i see in your save is very questionable for Imm level

On T101 you should have more than 4 cities, esp. the 2 double fish spots (Fish Man will agree).
All those Archers cost you 7gpt currently.
Workers are building more improvements for Berlin, but none helps to feed poor Cologne.

If HE = Heroic Epic marker, does that mean you would settle cities without food and consider them for a National Wonder?
Most players won't settle cities without a food resi.

I understand that you block land to support peaceful gaming, but combined with SH, barracks and other questionable builds, and probably worker management, you are far behind what could be done (peacefully) with the land available.
Tech choices are important, but still minor compared to efficient city founding and handling, with 2 gold mines you could rex much faster.

 

[Eagle777]

Thank you all for your opinions and your advice!
I did get Currency. Memories of games where my progress (expanding, landgrabbing) gets superhalted due to me being broke (no Currency) are surely known to everyone here.

The followup was interesting, too. The next 50 turns went like this. I did take the blocker city and then the Fur+Marble city (that is quite a lot of Fur there, very useful for trades). And soon I happened to trade for Ivory so, being IND, I picked up the Statue of Zeus even. Took a couple of chops.
Then I hit the GLib, then Music (for the GA, and got him), and then Compass (for trades).
Seeing as how noone wanted it, I even traded for Calendar and went for Mausollos - and got it, too. That will come in handy!
I guess leveraging IND plus marble can't be bad.

During that time I got my first GS and bulbed Philosophy. 1300 beakers sure is nice.

Mansa, however, beat me for the Taj Mahal.

I have new questions now.
Which towns would be your IW and HE picks (and perhaps NE, even) instead of the ones I was considering, and why?

What do you reckon is actually wrong with the city of choice for HE? With farms and mines it seems to work just fine. I cannot HE yet, though, no level 4 unit.

I am unsure with what you mean by "people would not settle cities without food". What else are you supposed to do with all that land from the maps? Surely not leave it empty. Cities there can produce just fine, can't they? I left them for last, then once I settled them I chopped Grans and Raxes and Forges there, and they're pumping units now.
Letting the AI settle so close to me (in order to capture those cities later) seemed to let them expand way too much towards me, it would be as if I deliberately want to be totally boxed in; they were in the forests, not the jungles.

I had 7 archers because they're fogbusting. I wanted to cover both barb cities and units popping up. Now they're covering cities. Perhaps I could've went 3 archers and then warriors for the rest. In the few fights that did happen, though, archers came in very handy. A few Barb axes did manage to spawn.

And possibly the most important question - directions and strategies.
I figured that, seeing as how Mansa went tech crazy while the above was happening, I don't have (m?)any strategy options. I beelined Steel and am going Grenadier + Cannons and will hit him soon.
Is that a standard play? I don't have any horses, unfortunatelly.

I will, after I conquer him.

 

[lymond]

I'd reemphasize earlier comments that you are settling too slow and also that city overlap is a great thing. Although this is a particularly odd layout here. (what type of map is this/size)

Which towns would be your IW and HE picks (and perhaps NE, even) instead of the ones I was considering, and why?

Well,IW I rarely ever build except for maybe Space games. HE I don't always build either but usually I build it in a city with good natural production..like a copper or iron resources, some hills, and at least a food resource to work all the hammers. It really does not need to be that complicated.

If I do happen to build IW it likewise will have food enough to grow large and plenty of natural production and potential for a lot of workshops at that stage. A lot of green tiles for State Property workshops is very nice for IW city. (health is an issue for that city too, so on a river is helpful or river/coast - but not too much coast. And with river you can build a Levee for more production)

What do you reckon is actually wrong with the city of choice for HE? With farms and mines it seems to work just fine. I cannot HE yet, though, no level 4 unit.

The problem right now is that spot is very low priority for settling. There's absolutely no food or resources of any kind. It's just a land filler that might be made into a city that has potential late game if your game goes late. Right now that city would be very slow to develop.

Usually when HE becomes a thought and active, I consider one of my existing or captured cities that has the best potential for it. Again, HE city, other than its initial infra, is a city that one will likely rarely whip once it is online...it's focus is the natural production from tiles worked.

am unsure with what you mean by "people would not settle cities without food". What else are you supposed to do with all that land from the maps? Surely not leave it empty. Cities there can produce just fine, can't they? I left them for last, then once I settled them I chopped Grans and Raxes and Forges there, and they're pumping units now.
Letting the AI settle so close to me (in order to capture those cities later) seemed to let them expand way too much towards me, it would be as if I deliberately want to be totally boxed in; they were in the forests, not the jungles.

Cause this game is about food not about filling empty swaths of land. Who cares if the AI settles crap cities close to you. The point here is to settle cities that are immediately productive and contribute.

Almost always your focus for settling cities is food specials. Basic settling layout plans are based on these. The exception are things like start resources or an early commerce resource like gold for that early boost. (your gold city over there I'd actually have settled right next to it regardless of having Henge built)

I had 7 archers because they're fogbusting. I wanted to cover both barb cities and units popping up. Now they're covering cities. Perhaps I could've went 3 archers and then warriors for the rest. In the few fights that did happen, though, archers came in very handy. A few Barb axes did manage to spawn.

Yeah, unfortunately you had no early strats and had to tech archery. ( I go whole games without even over owning Archery)

Cannons are fine.I usually go Rifling/Cannons if no horses, but Curs are my usually goto.

Anyway, I'm not sure where this particular game is right now, but I'd just recommend to you that you really need to focus on your early game basics.

 

[krikav]

Looks abit like planet generator...?
Can be rather fun and nice maps, often packed with forest.

 

[Eagle777]

Thank you for the comments!
First a reply, then a followup on what has happened in the game since.

I'd reemphasize earlier comments that you are settling too slow and also that city overlap is a great thing. Although this is a particularly odd layout here. (what type of map is this/size)

Everything left as random defaults in a BAT Custom game. No scenarios, extra forests or anything, and leader was random, too.
Two exceptions to that, no events and no huts.

If I do happen to build IW it likewise will have food enough to grow large and plenty of natural production and potential for a lot of workshops at that stage. A lot of green tiles for State Property workshops is very nice for IW city. (health is an issue for that city too, so on a river is helpful or river/coast - but not too much coast. And with river you can build a Levee for more production)

Yeah, that's what decided between HE and IW for me.
Although both might be put to the same city at times? If I want to just war war war.
Or perhaps getting IW wastes too much unitpumping turns...

It seems the cities I do have will fit the bill.
I did settle the bottom left (which has food) after settling the HE and IW cities, though (contrary of your tip). Didn't think of getting the cities productive sooner like you mention, I just figured they'd be better at building units than the cities like that particular one and that they'd be able to get to it soon enough.

Yeah, unfortunately you had no early strats and had to tech archery. ( I go whole games without even over owning Archery)

I do too when I can.
You play Deity, right? AI will fogbust for you there, too, so Archery can be skipped more often...

Anyway, I'm not sure where this particular game is right now, but I'd just recommend to you that you really need to focus on your early game basics.

Wait till you see my love for lumbermills...

I will post an update soon, I just have to format the screenshots and whatnot. Wars happened, and a lot of them; moreover, the situation has gotten quite tough even though they went well!

 

[Eagle777]

Wars

So the abridged version of the story of wars that followed went like this.
I wanted to keep everyone busy while I get my army up. I linked a couple of GAs and went Theocracy and full on unitpumping, sacrificing a bit of GPP to get the war with stronger troops and earlier.
I also wanted to take out Mansa, as my first strategic goal, simply because he wins Space if I let him (or even worse, gets rolled by someone else).
I went Representation and Mercantilism, seeing as how I had very little foreign trade routes (everyone else is in Mercantilism).

So while I was building up, I gave a tech or two to Toku to hit Mansa. But then Mansa immediately got Izzy to hit Toku, and soon made peace with Toku himself. It left Mansa unscratched, although at least these other two were busy and weren't gonna hit me when I declare on Mansa.
Toku and Izzy were in a long war since.

Then I got Mansa to hit Izzy (!) by giving him one single tech he did not have, and right after his stack went away I hit him. I took 4 cities from Mansa (razing one), while he took one from Izzy.
I capped Mansa as soon as I could (didn't see any point in prolonging that war), and that's where we are now.

I have a sizable army left, of course. 40 grens, 30 cannons, and a dozen Pikes+Bows ready to march. One doctor. They would take quite a while to get to Charlie, unless I took the sea route.


My Kingdom at the moment, from north to south

How do I approach a game where one opponent has gotten huge?

That's the key question at this point for me.
Because, while all this was happening, on the other side of the world, Monty was a dumbass and hit Charlie, and took one city, only to lose it back and then lose a few more and capitulate to Charlie soon afterwards.
And now Charlie is huge.
He is also at war with Pericles and I don't know how that is going.

I still have a small tech lead on Charlie. But I am unsure how to leverage that exactly (if there's anything to leverage).
I also am not sure I would win space against him. It is possible, but it feels tricky when he got that big.
It seems I'll have to go to war with him.

Demographics

Production (of course, the war has JUST ended)

Pericles doesn't like me for declaring on his friend, yet doesn't like me for vassalizing his enemy. They're the same guy

I probably should have paid off Charlie to leave Monty alone earlier, right?

What would be a good immediate play?

What are good long term strategies now, both when it comes to empire management and when it comes to beating Charlie?
Emancipation will start to hurt me soon. I only have one GP at the moment, and I did take Parthenon so that might help but getting 3 more will be quite a wait... Getting Great spy from Fascism is perhaps an option? Although that will take a while to get, but perhaps no less than generating GPP for 3 more GP.

 

[Eagle777]

Here's the save.
I keep forgetting those, and I do know that Civ knows to open them just from the double click and screenshots are good but don't tell the whole story...

You can see some of the woods (especially near the rivers) still ready for lumber mills!
We have to think about our planet. Also property values (and citizen satisfaction!) in the cities are much higher this way...

 

[Eagle777]

It is pretty crazy how good Representation plus Mercantilism can get.
I had 15 turns to get a tech on zero science.

It is probably no news to anyone here, it is news just to us "keep calm and cottage everything and don't worry about it afterwards" crew.

I guess it is tricky if you're not spiritual, as you cannot just flip back to free trade once other nations leave mercantilism and once you can get trade routes back....