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Immortal difficulty a bit too...Immortal

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by kjades, Aug 12, 2015.

  1. Kriogen

    Kriogen Warlord

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    I also mostly play on epic speeds.

    Epic speed is 50% longer. If some goal is 'do this around turn 90' on standard speed, on epic it would be 'do this around turn 130-140'. So your NC should be before turn 200.

    I have a feeling you'd need to do it 50-100% better as you are doing it now.

    Large map: penalties are smaller then on standard size map (5% science/city vs 3%/city). But don't. It's a noob trap. Don't overexpand at start.

    Question: hows your world-wonderwhoring addiction?
     
  2. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

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    On epic, you should have NC up between T120 to T150 to sustain a good tempo.

    Try to settle your cap always on hills near mountains. Cause, you'll have 1 more hammer in early production, and have an observatory.

    Go for 3 cities at first. You'll win around T450/500. Then try to win with 4 cities. You'll see your finish time slowly get down game after game.

    Workers : 1.5 per city. So 3 cities = 4/5 workers. 4 cities = 6. Steal 2 or 3 first one to CS or AIs. There are the key of the game. As you'll growth you don't want your people working an unimproved tiles (it's a bunch of food lost).

    Food over production, nearly always. Try no wonder at the beginning, later when you'll be better on Immortal. Don't forget internal trade route. Build caravans or trade ships ASAP.

    Ignore every buildings except food an science one. Keep you money to rush-buy science building. Manage to stay always happy, sell every lux or strategic ressources you don't use to AI.
    Build coliseum or so, if you really need them. Build market or so, if you have some turns when you're waiting Scientific Theory or Plastics.

    Read and watch this : http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=539187
     
  3. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    On Epic, you can roughly adjust turn times by +50%, so turn 90 at Standard would correspond to about turn 135 on Epic.
     
  4. wayneb64

    wayneb64 Prince

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    Lots of puppeted cities are fine. Self founded (or annexed) cities grow your social policy and technology cost and add an unhappiness cost. Puppets only add the unhappiness cost. Building cost is also similar. Why pay for 10 libraries for 10 citizens in all 10 cites when you can pay for 4 libraries with 25 citizens each?
     
  5. Greggy08

    Greggy08 Warlord

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    Puppets don't increas policy but increase researches cost
     
  6. wayneb64

    wayneb64 Prince

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    I knew policy cost went up, and I just assumed technology didn't. They do however add science, gold/expense, and luxuries/resources. I normally raise the crappy ones anyway unless they have key resources or luxuries.

    They also provide air bases so a city may only have tactical value.
     
  7. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    Hi Kjades,

    Over in the Strategy Guides there are some very thorough pointers about how to grow and achieve fast Science victories. Basically, if you're truly looking to sharpen your play, I'd focus on learning how to do the most "Basic" gameplay before incorporating your own preferred tricks and fun :).

    3-city NC. Full Tradition. 4 Cities, or 5 if the land is outstanding. Lots of internal trade routes. optimal tech paths (Writing quicker with Babylon). Fast Education. Oxford into Radio for fast Ideologies. Pick either Freedom or Order depending on your land strengths (often Freedom gives straightforward advantage due to the 1/2 food for Specialist policies and longer Golden Ages). Work your Writing guilds and save Great Writers until you can win World's Fair. Save your Artists for continuous Golden Ages (particularly if Freedom). Bulb your scientists with efficiency (i.e. to get to Public Schools, or Labs, or simply saving towards end games.

    On Immortal, no AI can overwhelm you militarily so long as you are capable with your military. Sometimes gameplay makes it worthwhile to war quickly, particularly with Medieval or industrial pushes. But if you can't war quickly and with a hammerblow, just defend and eco like a boss.

    Sometimes the "basics" are a bit boring, but really focus on them and you'll see how much faster a game goes... and then you can play around. Personally, i play a lot more on Immortal rather than Deity precisely because I can play around, or do weird Social Policies, or survive crap lands. I may win basically 100% of the time, but it's more often more fun to me than the Diety slog with restrictions.

    Best of luck!
     
  8. kjades

    kjades Chieftain

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    @Greggy08

    Yeah, sorry, could have been more specific myself...anyway, I think I get it now, thanks again.
    As far as Ideology goes, I tend to prefer Freedom then Order...(I never really pick Autocracy...you know...peacemonger psychological problems :D)...but in every match, I tend to stick to the one chosen by the highest Tourism-producing AIs (India, in the case of the new match I've just started), so that I can keep growing without dropping into unhappiness (as with 30-40 pop cities happiness is definitely gonna be an issue).

    Other questions:

    - until when is it acceptable to settle a city? Before a certain tech? Or a specific turn? Just to know the pace I should keep...

    - many of you suggest to have "lots of inner trade routes"...how do you build a strong econoym if not trading for gold with AIs/City States? Should I only rely on markets, banks etc etc...?

    - if using trade routes only for inner food routes, how do you face the population growth rythm in terms of happiness? is dropping into negatives acceptable? (don't think so, but I'm rarely right :D)

    - again, many people told me to "save greate people for later"...isn't this going to backfire in the long run? like, gold income terribly low, for instance, because of the many units kept up? and, in general, what do you mean by "later"? :D

    @Kriogen
    I manage to GreatEngineer-force-build Wonders like Louvre (I'm most times the only one picking Exploration), Porcelain Tower (not always though, this last match Korea was too quick), then any Ideology-specific wonder...sometimes I manage to grab some more, but no way, NO WAY, I ever manage to get very early wonders (like, someone told me to go for hanging gardens...how would you even do that, with the tech gap you have at the very beginning? beelining sound to me like a terrible solution, especially 'cause you're going to delay lots of basic stuff just to rush one building... :| )

    @Nick31
    Exactly my thought...Immortal already looks quite "strict", as far as different approaches go...I have the feeling Deity is but a bunch of standardized, repetitive moves, like, a big formal exercise, for every match...(maybe I'm being a bit overdramatic here...just 'cause I'm still a half noob... :|)


    Thanks again, everybody
     
  9. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    On standard, you should have all cities settled already by turn 100. NC should be built before 90. Meaning you should have all libraries up by then. These are rough guidelines. Sometimes the map is weird like small continents or archipelago then you adjust. I myself prefer settling all cities before NC for 4 city tradition, but it requires good teching to hook up lux to stay happy.

    Also, Freedom is probably easier to play should should stick to it and just focus on producing gold after you reached modern and get research labs running. Sure you can grow cities beyond that but it doesn't make that huge a difference, the ability of you to get gold out of AI to buy spaceship parts is the real useful thing about freedom. Order requires both coal/factories and strong production which I think is harder than freedom. Tourism isn't a problem as long as you can win SV quick. I usually do it with 0 Tourism and I never switch ideologies. The Tier 2 freedom tenet that reduces specialist unhappiness is a massive boost when you go tall and work all slots.

    Read Acken's guide for freedom if you want to know more specifics
    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=534745

    Sometimes you'll have to build happiness buildings such as zoos and coliseums and circus maximus wonder to stay happy before ideology happiness kicks in. Otherwise, try to ally as many mercantile CS as you can. Trading or buying lux from AI should also be a priority. You should be saving a GW to bulb the tier 2 freedom specialist happiness policy immediately after you get ideology (through Radio timed with a Oxford free tech). Also try to save all GA to be used after you get that tier 2 policy.

    Do not build wonders such as Louvre (you should never open Exploration either) unless you're going for CV specifically. PT is always a save bet if you played a well science game. Freedom wonder is the Statue of Liberty, if you have a GE, you should rush it as it's an expensive building to build. The Order wonder Kremlin is pretty much the worst ideology wonder and that's why I don't like it either. For freedom, you also want to have Big Ben before you buy expensive buildings such as research labs. An later just before the win, you'll have to build Hubble for the 2 free GS. As for other wonders, don't bother building them until you're better at your win time. Leaning Tower of Piza is a very strong wonder, but don't get used to it as it's highly competitive on deity.

    As for using GS to bulb, you should read the guide as it provides more details on how to time it correctly.
     
  10. Greggy08

    Greggy08 Warlord

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    I usually don't save any great person for later eras and for hanging gardens i beeline them just after writing then i go for mining for production and if i'm near desert i go for currency immediatly then you i usually go straight to national college(i usually have it with 2 cities) education with just some other techs to get universities for science and immediatly work specialists slots... sometimes i try to get forbidden palace or porcelain tower... the other 2 wonders that i mind are hubble telescope and statue of libertty ( i take freedom for the +4 science from academy and purchasing ss parts)
     
  11. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Getting back a little late...

    It is not just the higher policy cost, but also increased tech cost, and getting the National Wonders gets more and more difficult. The rule of thumb is 4 cities with Tradition, 6-8 if Liberty.

    The National Wonders have prerequisites. For example, every city you found (or annex) before Oxford means: (1) one more city that must build a university (which is tough on a Pop 1 city, so rush buy Library and University?); and (2) an increase cost to building Oxford (this is a modest increase, but it adds up). NC and Oxford are the most OP of the NW, but all NW are very strong. I would much rather have 6 cities and all my NW timely than 8+ cities with NW all delayed (or never done).
     
  12. Memoryjar

    Memoryjar Emperor

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    - Roads : city connection. As you growth your income will growth. Also sell to AI every horses, iron, or so.

    - Buy to AI some luxs. Ally CS with lux you don't have, make their quests.
     
  13. Sclb

    Sclb Emperor

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    By Great person, do you mean great scientists? You should only plant 1-2 as a rule of thumb and the rest saved for later bulbing. Mining is probably better if you take it as one of the first 3. You'll need it as soon as you have a worker in order to allow for chopping forests or hooking up mining lux. You don't need writing until you've planted 1-2 cities since usually they'll build monument/granary before library anyway.
     
  14. Greggy08

    Greggy08 Warlord

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    we're speaking about babilon so i think writing is the first thing to research then mining then i go straight to mathematics and i plant every great sciencist till industrial era by the end i usually have 6 academies and then i start bulbing
     
  15. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    Hey KJades,

    So, for fun I'm playing a quick game of Babylon with Immortal, Large Map (plus an extra AI, Pangea, Random Personalities, Raging Barbs) to get some immediate comparison. Mind you, this isn't a demonstration of "Optimal" Babylon, merely "basic" Babylon to win on Immortal. Standard Speed.

    Had a bit of a Trollish start, Jungle Coastal, only crabs and whales, very low production capital. Very low production game, but a very easy Diplo game as I went Coastal Tradition and sold 6 crabs to AI on a consistent basis and Allied with a few Mercantile CS early (Barb camp teams of scouts and bowmen).

    So, even with a Meh start, hitting T110 Education is pretty straightforward with Babylon. 3-city NC by T90, followed by T174 Ideologies, and T198 Labs. Coastal Tradition, planting 2 Academies in Jungle Cap, buying Science buildings in Cap ASAP, selling luxes and strategics to AI, bribing most aggressive neighbors to attack elsewhere.... about as basic as it gets.

    I ended up going 5-cities with a fun shape because I could settle far away a 2-lux distant city (which I love doing), so my 5th city isn't even planted by T110. Not an impediment, so long as you have the happiness (which I had from Merc CS Allies), and can pump cargo ships into it and buy an Aqueduct.

    Even with just one Lab, and only 2 policies completed in Rationalism, I'm over 700 Science on T200. So by Turn 300 on Epic, you want that target. I'll be at 1200+ before too long. And 1500+ By T250.

    Here is T110

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=499519772

    And here is T200

    http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=499519837

    I think from seeing your responses above, some "basic" skills you need to work on are 1) learning to go max growth, 2) Learning to sell possible goods to AI, and 3) Acquiring CS or AI happiness.

    Inner trade routes (particularly cargo ships) are amazing with food, and more amazing with free Aqueducts in Tradition. In this game I have a 16-pop Jungle capital by T110. When you learn how to grow as fast as possible with internal trade routes, you'll realize that you'll burn through happiness quite quickly and should only settle 4-6 cities with Tradition.

    Selling stuff to AIs is a bit of micro and relies on good scouting, particularly on large maps to find trading partners and develop DOFs if possible. Finding happiness is a game tactic that will develop as you figure out how to time CS quests, send archers far and wide for camps, and getting AI gold to buy a CS Ally.

    Have fun :)
     
  16. wayneb64

    wayneb64 Prince

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    Don't forget about the religious buildings for happiness. A faith pantheon will either help you get your own religion so you can choose the best buildings or worse case if you don't get one you can build the buildings that the AI spreads to you. Best case you collect them all!
     
  17. kjades

    kjades Chieftain

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    Well, thx a lot everybody, for all the technical and general hints...

    Many of them I already knew (just was giving them for granted basics :) ), but in several ways you helped a lot...

    I'm now mid-late game of my new Babylon SV Immortal Standard speed match, things are rollin' quite nicely...so...I'll keep you updated :)
     
  18. reddishrecue

    reddishrecue Deity

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    The Kremlin could relate to some of the autocratic ideologies that also enhance advanced mobile units such as tanks. I guess it makes up for the lack of mobile enhancements that aren't in Order. Big ben is only available when you open commerce.
     
  19. Nick31

    Nick31 Prince

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    Awesome. I finished the game above with a T280 Freedom Space Victory, a bit slowish. I really hope to see you finishing your game ahead of that ;).
     
  20. kjades

    kjades Chieftain

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    Hey guyz, just to put a fullstop to this thread.
    Yesterday I managed to finally get my Immortal SV (standard speed).
    Compared to the timing most of you have suggested me I was rather slow (around T350, or so). That is because I don't particularly like beelining leaving behind some techs that might prove useful in the long distance, and clearly even 'cause I might have been too slow on getting some techs.
    Btw, my science output at the end of the match was around 1290ish. Decent, right?

    Well...thx again for your help. Soon I'm gonna pester you with another post about culture victory :D
     

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