Immortal: Facing Zulus or Japan early on (Just got DoWed, lost important town)

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by eXeel, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. eXeel

    eXeel Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
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    I have a problem. Immortal is hard. I haven't won a game yet, but survived. And I was close to winning (stopped before time, could maybe have won).
    But I just stopped playing a game where Japan started 20-25 tiles away from me, and I might have settled a little to close to him, but he went to war.
    I beat him back, a great army of his, until Samurais entered. W t f, that is a lot of strength early on! My ranged units did little to no damage.

    Now I am in a great game, but Shaka of the Zulu just declared war on me. 12 impi, 2-3 catapults, 2-3 ranged came from the fog. He started 20-25 tiles from me. And yes, again I settles maybe 1 tile or 2 too close to him way back.

    I don't have a great amount of units. I am Shoshones and have 3 ranged, 2 scouts. That is too little, was starting to produce some (getting barracks in 2nd city) but too late.

    I uploaded some saves. Turn 114 is about where they DoW me. I included to earlier saves.
    Can you tell me what I should have done? I can't avoid losing Te-moak or what it is called. That might lose me the game.
    Even if I 20-30 turns before pump out units, vs the Impi I need ranged and CBs are my best ranged. And they need 5-6 shots to kill :S

    What to do, what to do...
     
  2. kaspergm

    kaspergm Deity

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    Aug 19, 2012
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    5,259
    I won't assume I can give you advice on how to play on immortal, but out of curiosity, what policies did you pick? I'm figuring if we're talking a matter of survival and you find yourself starting next to an extremely warlike nation (Zulus, Huns, Japan, Rome ...) it might be worth it to take a couple of policies from Honor. Depending on how the map layout is, the free Great General can really be a lifesaver by offering you a citadel in a tight spot. I guess competitive players might not like this strategy, but for those of us who are satisfied with holding the AI off long enough until we can perhaps pull a victory in the end, it might be worth considering.
     
  3. joshua43214

    joshua43214 King

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    I loaded your T96 and your T114 save. I was considering doing another video on "how to save your game..." with them, but I would need a save from much earlier for it to have any real value.

    I might sound a bit heavy handed with some of this, none of it is meant to be critical, there is just a lot of very fundamental mistakes.

    you settled the cap on the flat when you can a perfectly good hill.
    Agidika give you nothing but a burden on your happiness.
    To say that you settled "a bit too close to Shaka" with Te-Moak is a seriously huge understatement (not that it matters).
    T97 and you have not researched philosophy!
    T97 and you are 9 turns from finishing the Petra and you have 3 desert tiles, none of which are river hills, you have wasted 10 or so turns I am guessing on a useless wonder.
    T97 and you are researching CS rather than philosophy (which should have been done 20 or more turns ago.
    T115 and Te-Moak is surrounded by Impi, and you have 2 archers for defense, a CB 10 tiles away, and over 600 gold not being used to buy more CB's. CS is done and no pikes!
    T115 and you are building the Oracle (This goes typically ~T85 on Immortal and Deity), rather than the NC, so there is a very high chance you will waste even more hammers on a wonder that should have been completed 30 turns ago.

    The biggest problem though is starting with 7 tiles between your cap and Shaka's cap, and you did not prepare at all for the inevitable DoW. Even in the T96 save, you could have destroyed him if you had simply spent time building some archers or CB's rather than a useless wonder. Had you taken the NC in a timely fashion, you would be close enough to machinery at T115 to hold him off until you could upgrade. The problem is that Impi's are almost impossible to stop with just CB's if he has an open field to work in, they move 3 tiles at a time, and get massive flanking bonus's. If you do not have a wall of firmly planted pikes, he will roll you over.

    Shaka, Attila, Assyria, and the other early war mongers all build the crappiest caps and expos. They are almost always cake to demolish if you prepare and get at them early. 4 CB's will easily take Shaka's cap in 2 turns...
     
  4. Scott Jegg

    Scott Jegg Warlord

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    Jun 28, 2013
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    When you start the game next to a warmonger, you are going to have to forget your usual strategy.

    Get your second city out quickly, get to construction, and get building comp bows and walls in your cities. You can then return to the normal tech path. It's best for you to get about 5-6 cbows and some melee units, declare war, try and eliminate their army as they enter your territory, then push out and take their cities before they even get the chance to spread and get more powerful. If you can destroy Shaka before he even gets to impi... job done.
     
  5. rodrigoq

    rodrigoq Warlord

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    Or.. when starting nice and close to a warmonger civ.. Go steal his workers, and keep the DoW runing for the next 4000 years while producing archers and sitting them just out of sight of his city(s).. use a scout to steal any workers they make, and archers to kill any units they make. You can usually use a captured worker to lure out their units. Place it close enough to be capyured in 1 turn, blow that unit up with archers, recap worker, rinse and repeat. You can also take potshots at their city when bored for extra XP.. Then, once you're units are leveled nicely, go take their cities and be rid of them for good. Shaka, should NEVER be allowed to survive beyond classical era. Atilla is cool to keep around. He mass produces rams, which are just free xp, and horse archers that you will eventually be able to 1shot with a well trained spear. When get gets units that hurt, like CB's, kill them, and hope he makes more rams, if he doesn't behave, kill him.
     
  6. black213

    black213 Emperor

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    Mar 12, 2010
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    Played Immortal on the new patch as Spain. Augustus decided to smash my capital on turn 80 with ballistas and legions. :(
     
  7. eXeel

    eXeel Chieftain

    Joined:
    May 21, 2007
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    Joshua, this is the earliest save I have. Can't you restart from a save game? Turn 46.

    I will try and restart from there and use your advice to be more offensive. I never thought I HAD to be offensive and start wars, but I understand the logic. Hope the other Civs won't attack me too for being warmongering...

    About my 3rd city to the left of my capital... I got it because of the 2 wine, and the 4 food ressources. Isn't that a fine coastal city, with production too? I have no coast besides that.
    It felt like it grew fast enough. Not to help in this war, but later on. 2 cities are very little :|

    EDIT: I actually at the moment feel like beligning for Machinery for the Crossbow Men. As they are my best bet vs their anti-melee (free attack) melee units. But you mentioned Philosophy for the NC. I can't both get libraries and that wonder, while warring Shaka. Isn't it two different priorities? Either get NC fast and tech up to better units, or go Composite bowmen early and attack while teching to Crossbowmen to finish it off?
    I would love to see a replay of yours Joshua of the map, if it isnt too late the 46 turn save, to see if and how you can fix it.

    EDIT 2: In turn 85, I succesfully took Shakas capital with 4 CBs and 1 of my scouts (Pikeman on the way there). I took advantage of the great greeks declaring Shaka war. Waited 4-6 turns while setting up troops and then took out the city.
    Maybe Greeks are my next problem? :) They took a Zulu city 4 tiles to the right of the capital I took. Zulu has one city left now.
    Heading for NC now might be a good idea.
    Spoiler :
     

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