immortal fast units

simwiz2

Warlord
Joined
Dec 3, 2001
Messages
261
Location
New Jersey
The retreat ability makes fast units really unbalanced. Firaxis plz put an option in the editor to take it out. TO see how unbalanced it is, here's one of the biggest problems it has:


It was the industrial age, post-infantry but pre-tank. And egypt declares war on me out of the blue. Fine, I will add a few more cities to my empire. But 6 attack (infantry or cav) vs 10 defense (infantry) means an almost certain stalemate. It becomes a war of who can make the war cost less, since any all-out attack would have staggering losses.
Except cavalry. In a war of cost, it is necessary to lose less "shields" worth of units than the enemy, if you want to "win". But many of my cities are 2 squares from egyptian ones, so my border is 1 square. and we both have RR's everywhere. They attack with cavalry against cities with several infantry in them. After losing, the cavalry retreat, then get back on the RR's and well out of my striking range. If I get unlucky and lose so much as ONE INFANTRY, then I am losing the stalemate -- I have lost 90 shields, and no matter how many cavalry they senselessly throw at my cities, they lose NONE. So not only are these units invincible, they also heal for FREE. A cavalry division, losing 3/4 of its soldiers, somehow obtains re-enforcements without building any more rifles, training/breeding more horses, or training the recruits (these would consume shields). The only way to make my enemy lose even ONE UNIT, other than a full-scale invasion, would be to defend with cavalry. And everyone knows how good 3 defense does against 6 attack :rolleyes:


So i guess the whole point of this is: Firaxis, please fix these units' immortality, or at least put something in the editor so that people can fix it if they want to.
 
Maybe I missed something. BUT WHY DON'T YOU HAVE CAVALRY UNITS TO FINISH OFF THEIR CAV??? Even knights would do. They can't get on their RR's the turn they retreated. Also, if you had some cav in the cities they could not retreat. Artillery in the cities would also whittle down some hit points before they attacked.


But your point is valid, and yet another problem with Civ 3: enemy "fast" units can continue to attack - and then pull back if losing - while you take your hits eventually losing the occasional "slow" unit; ergo, you are indeed losing this war of attrition.

That was happening to me as the Iroquois before I got a horse tile and put my Mounted Warriors on line.

Perhaps you'd prefer some kind of partial shield cost penalty for each "repaired" hit point?? Don't hold your breath. Firaxis dropped the ball on a lot more serious problems than this.
 
"Maybe I missed something. BUT WHY DON'T YOU HAVE CAVALRY UNITS TO FINISH OFF THEIR CAV??? Even knights would do. They can't get on their RR's the turn they retreated. Also, if you had some cav in the cities they could not retreat. Artillery in the cities would also whittle down some hit points before they attacked."

They came in, attacked, retreated, and got onto their RR's and out of sight on the same turn. Thinking about it, it doesnt make sense to me either - I dont think they would have enough moves to make it - but i saw them do it
:confused: .

Artillery wont help, they are at 1hp, but they are out of range when my turn comes. If you mean on defensive, it might help a bit, but the odds are already for me.

Cavalry in the cities, defending?? They would die. Counterattack? They are well out of reach on both turns surrounding their attack.

But this is what doesnt make sense to me (and from your post i guess you noticed it too):
enemy cav gets of RR's 1 move
enemy cav attacks 1 move
enemy cav retreats 1 move???
back on RR??? 1 move

Thats 3 or 4 moves just to get back on the RR, depending on whether retreat is a move (i think it is). So they should either be next to my city, or on the RR near it w/ no moves left. But they arent. So maybe my border was pushed right next to my city or something, i dont really remember :confused:
 
Both sides have infantry, but no offense better than calvary. In other words, WWI. So you need a way to bog everything down and make the intrinsic advantages of a defensive struggle work. You could follow the WWI line directly and construct a line of fortress (i.e. trenches). What I recommed is build some extra infantry, then use them to shield your calvary while it cuts the road network just across the border. (No sense in destroying your own improvements, after all ;) )

Now, his calvary will be able to get to your cities and attack, but will not have enough movement to make it out of the war zone on the same turn.
 
That is why the Zulu Impi unit is so good in the Ancient period...units such as War Chariots and Horsemen and the Jaguar Warrior cannot withdraw once they attack those babies, which is an immense boon.
 
I completley disagree with you simwiz - the retreat option is great.

What you have described is impossible as has already been pointed out, but even so you should now be advancing with 2infantry, 2 artillery groups - which is what I do in an industrial age war. Cavalry will be hard pressed to beat a few of these and then you can advance to his cities, bombard them then attack with infantry
 
retreat is OK, but there`s abig bug I often notice: retreating units can still move - seems the retreat is not a move. Units winning against a stack have moved (even though they have to go back) - counts as a move. So when you attack but don`t take the city that turn, your winning attackers are stuck in the open but the losers are save :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
As has been pointed out this situation is similar to WW1, which is why it lasted for 4 years without the front lines moving more than a few miles. What broke the deadlock was TANKS.

Therefore - get the tech advances to build tanks.

In the meantime use artillery, defended by infantry, to destroy rail links so the cavalry can't retreat. By the way, they can't use YOUR railroads to retreat.
 
Nobody ever won anything by sitting on their @$$e$.

Defenders heal for free too and they have ALL of the advantages. Versus mobile units though they may take losses. So, some cavalry is therefore needed to chase down those wounded attackers.

Stalemate eh? Sounds like WW1 to me. :D
 
Originally posted by simwiz2
...we both have RR's everywhere. They attack with cavalry against cities with several infantry in them. After losing, the cavalry retreat, then get back on the RR's and well out of my striking range. ...

Here's a thought :enlighten use your artillery to blast the other civ's RR's and then roads, that way they have to use a movement point to get to your cities. They won't be able to retreat from you counter attacking cavalry. Just make sure you send some infantry to protect your cavalry.
 
Also if his source of horses is close enough to your border, make sure you destroy the improvements in that tile. If it's his only source of horses, he won't be able to make anymore cavalry without sending workers out to fix the RRs and roads.
 
I wrote a long reply the other day and then the forums crashed so it did not get posted. Basically, the situation is frustrating, but there are a number of relatively easy solutions that do not require a major change to the game rules.

Several excellent options have been given to you, such as using artillery or your Calvary to cut their railroads. Another idea is to draft a few infantry units. You need Nationalism and cities with pop 7+ to draft. Do not go overboard as drafting causes unhappiness. This negates an attrition strategy, as the enemy can not draft more Calvary and many of your conscripts will survive and become veterans.
 
retreating costs no move points, and some of my new conquered cities had borders pushed right next to them (i did take a few early on). they have 3 horses far from the front line. Artillery miss half the time, and it will take a looooong time to smash their RR everywhere near the front. Infantry to pillage? They will be gangbanged, and 3-4 cav will retreat (unscathed in shield terms) and a 5th will take it out - 90s to 0 sh. Besides, why should i have to demolish EVERY single RR tile along the frontlines just to prevent their units from being invincible? I understand that some people may like this option, but i think at least there should be an OPTION in the editor to turn it off.
 
Their units are not invincible. Find another way. Here is another idea: Pile in a few calvary and fortify them. With walls or a pop 7+ city they have about a 50/50 chance against attacking calvary. The attackers will die if they lose, and you get to heal any damaged units. 50/50 is better odds than what you describe in your first post.

If you have any extra horsemen or knights, you can bring them in and have them counterattack. Because they are obsolete units it won't be much of a loss and they do have a chance of taking out calvary.

There are many solutions to your tactical situation. As for editors, I am sure you can hack a way to get what you want. I am just as sure that after you make the change, that in one of your next games you will be attacking with tanks or knights and sorely miss the ability.
 
"I am just as sure that after you make the change, that in one of your next games you will be attacking with tanks or knights and sorely miss the ability."


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You're probably right. Of course the AI will miss it a lot more than me, since I usually attack with tanks when they have pikes, while their knights will now die to my musketeers. ;)
 
" ... and it will take a looooong time to smash their RR everywhere near the front. Infantry to pillage? They will be gangbanged, and 3-4 cav will retreat (unscathed in shield terms) and a 5th will take it out - 90s to 0 sh. Besides, why should i have to demolish EVERY single RR tile along the frontlines ..."

So it takes a long time. If you don't want to make a concerted effort for tanks, then it probably should take a long time. :p Of course, you could always rush a temple or library in the affected cities to make his attacks harder. 3-5 turns of the AI having a chance to cav rush and take back cities you took from him doesn't seem so unreasonable, especially if you have not done anything to make this difficult.

Think of this as a challenge, not a problem. :D And it is very much like WWI.

"If offered a challenge, respond. If offered an opportunity, take it. If offered a challenging opportunit, run for the hills!" a nameless software engineer :crazyeyes
 
simwiz2, please post a save game where we can observe this mysterious advance and retreat. The only way that what you said could work is if there is no gap between the edge of your city and the beginning of your oppontents cultural boundary. If there was even one space between you guys they could only run 1 space aways afterwards and you could just hunt them with cavalry. PLease post a save file. ;)
 
Let me get this straight. You are playing games on a difficulty level where you have tanks against pikemen, and you want Firaxis to make the game easier for you?

Originally posted by simwiz2
You're probably right. Of course the AI will miss it a lot more than me, since I usually attack with tanks when they have pikes, while their knights will now die to my musketeers. ;) [/B]
 
It's regent, and the tank/pikeman is usually the civs i rush mercilessly, so they are crippled for the game. I dont play above regent because i cant stand a cheating AI. I just want a level playing field, with no outrageous advantages either way.

And I dont want an easier game. I just dont like the fact that theres no point to units like longbows and swordsmen, because they can actually be KILLED :eek: :rolleyes: , while the fast units are apparently protected by some unknown power, and never cost anything to reinforce even with 3/4 of the men and horses are killed. And they never die unless you run out of move points at an innopportune moment, or the defender is at 1 hp.

If anything taking out retreat would make the game harder for me, because i know that current rules make slow offense units worthless, while the AI still builds them. The tank/pike is an extreme example, usually in border cities where the AI does not upgrade. Usually unit quality between me and the AI is about equal.

I NEVER mentioned wanting an easier game, I just dont like some of the clearly untested things firaxis put in the game. You think the game is too hard for me? Invincible fast units make it easy to slaughter an AI nation. Build a ton of fast units. Blitz. Take cities. Repeat. You would lose almost no units, with the exception of those in close battles, since your 1-hp fast units will be in what is now YOUR land, well out of the AI's reach. Since you lose almost no units, you can heal your injured units and then blitz the next AI. And then the next...
 
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