Immortal Game #2

[Pedro78]

Question: This would be a "perfect" granary build, yes? It's being finished with the food bin half full.

Nope, the granary will be completed @17/22. However you can turn on "avoid growth" for one turn after completing the granary and get full regrowth -- that would be pretty close to optimal.

I didn't read your write-ups very thoroughly from the beggining (shame on me ) but I don't think you should need axemen to deal with barbs on IMM. Building a few early warriors usually does the trick. Maybe one axeman is good to feel safe, but you def don't need 2 of them.

I don't like your dotmap. I'd rather settle one city 3N2W of Haria (not rush here) and settle your eastern spot 1E of its location -- being CRE you can easily flip that barb city with second border pop (assuming no one takes it first, ofc). But even if you lose the barb city, having that FP and riverplains makes the move worthwhile.

 

[Gasp]

Too bad Charly settled the wheat before you, it was a good spot to take. I tend to agree with Pedro about the eastern spot. That Cow tile isn't enough food, you definitely want to grab a FP.
After that, you may not need to settle any more cities before you attack your neighbor / get IW.

 

[Wrathful]

Nope, the granary will be completed @17/22. However you can turn on "avoid growth" for one turn after completing the granary and get full regrowth -- that would be pretty close to optimal.

Ah, that's too bad. Well, at least I know for next time.

I don't like your dotmap. I'd rather settle one city 3N2W of Haria (not rush here) and settle your eastern spot 1E of its location -- being CRE you can easily flip that barb city with second border pop (assuming no one takes it first, ofc). But even if you lose the barb city, having that FP and riverplains makes the move worthwhile.

Yeah, my dotmap wasn't set in stone or anything. It was mostly just brainstorming. The city by Harihalaya could be a GP farm or something later, but I don't want to settle it for a while.

Interesting point with the barb city, I hadn't thought of that. If it could be flipped that would be very nice.

Spoiler To T65 :

My settler heads for the gold spot to the east. A worker will build a road there and then mine the gold. The city will work that gold until I can farm the flood plain.
An axeman will also head there to guard my new city.

T58: Looks like I'll be butting heads with creative Willem when I settle my new city.

T59: I'm the first to Writing. Signed open borders with WIllem and Alex, avoiding the religious zealots.

Willem built the Great Wall. Somewhat unfortunate, because now the barbs will head for me (or Charly) instead.

Zero percent research set to Alphabet. Not sure what to tech next.

T61: Angkor Wat settled. It is definitely cheeky to settle in Willem's face like that, but I'll undoubtedly end up attacking him at some point anyway.

T62: Charly asks to open borders, but I decline because I don't want to attract hate.

T63: Yikes! An evil barb archer has left the barb city to threaten Angkor Wat. My axe will arrive just in time.

T64: The archer didn't enter my borders. He killed one of the AI's scouts. I will try to lure him to his doom. Note that Charly has two scouts on the same tile. Funny.

The plan for Angkor Thom is to 2-pop whip this library at size 6, removing the two unhappy citizens there. (one from overcrowding and the other from "We fear for our safety").
I will switch production to an axeman (military police) for three turns. Overflow from library whip can go into a worker I guess.

T65: Alex settled a city near Angkor Thom. He wants that delicious jungled rice - and my horses. Well, good luck with that my friend.

Charly's scouts are still grouped together. Some kind of weird AI thing I suppose.

I am chopping a library for the capital. Will be done in two turns.

Next turn I can start on the gold mine for Angkor Wat. Then I will finish the road and build a cow pasture I think.

My only big question here is what to tech next. I have Alphabet selected, but that's only a placeholder. In three turns all of my libraries will be built, so that's when I'll turn up the slider. Aesthetics would be the obvious choice on Deity, but here the tech pace is much slower. Should I just go for Alphabet myself?

But if attacking Willem is the goal, perhaps I should head straight for Construction. Hmm...

 

[Gasp]

I don't think it's necessary to whip that Library in A.Thom, with a chop you can complete it in 2T. Your axeman here will add one happy face so you won't have unhappiness here. I would complete it then run GS to avoid growing.
You don't need OFH for anything neither. You have to build anoher worker in Hari (should be fast there with copper+gold+cow). This city doesn't need to grow.
Just a few things I see for you to do:
- Warrior in Angkor Wat should not sit here but head south into Willem's to scout a bit.
- Building roads to your neighbors for trades
- going for HBR. You'll need it anyway if you want Elepults. In this case a HA rush should be fine to take out Willie. This could be done by T85 or so

 

[Wrathful]

Thanks for the advice Gasp. I hadn't considered a HA rush but that sounds like a good idea.

Spoiler To T75 :

T66: The Hague is lightly defended. I also found some food for the barb city (dry rice). It should be flipped in 40 turns or so.
My worker there will mine the gold, then road 1SE of current position, then road into Willem for trade routes.

T68: Libraries finished everywhere (except Angkor Wat). I turn up my slider for Horseback Riding.

Harihalaya building another worker in preparation for unit production.

T69: Found Utrecht, Willem's second city. That's his source of copper. He has some units there but some of those are protection for the settler.

T71: Looks like Willem's stone is what allowed him to get the GW. I also spotted his settler party.

Meanwhile, I am building barracks in the capital and pigs city and getting my 4th worker in Harihalaya. After finishing the worker, that city will quickly get out a chariot for happiness in the capital.

T72: Roading into Alex for trade routes. I do the same near Willem. Also prechopping near the capital.

T73: Amsterdam could be a great Heroic Epic spot someday. Good food and good production with the hills, horse, and stone. Also has a nice lighthoused lake.
It is very lightly defended right now.

T74: Horseback Riding Finished. HA's require Archery, so I will quickly grab that.

What to tech after that? I will have to put a turn into Alpha to trade for it later.

Unless I just want to get it myself? I could get it in six turns. After that I will probably head for Currency.

Next turn I can start working on some horse archers.

 

[Gasp]

Once HA are available you should get them out as fast as possible (2pop-whip+chop) and DoW as early as you can. I would not be scared to lose many forest around A/Thom because Amsterdam's will compensate for the loss
Willie won't have an army to defend himself when you attack and none of his cities are on a hill. Worst case scenario he'll have like 4 spearmen and walls.
Looks like it's going to be a quick war, that's good. Too bad his land is quite dry.

I don't know if you had a particular plan for this game but as for which tech to research I'd suggest Math >> 30 chop to reinforce your army are nice. From there you could tech to Currency: building wealth will help your economy after the war. I would self-tech Alphabet only after that, if nobody has it yet. I don't think alpha is a priority.

You could also consider OB with Charly at some point, just to scout him and see if you can use your HA a bit more. Same for Alex... who knows. Or you take nice barb cities

 

[Anysense]

Why horse archers? Why not elepult? HA rush is a risky business, which is why I almost never do it. Elephants are more reliable and hard to counter, particularly when accompanied with catapults. Anyway, ~800BC feels rather late for HA rush, even for immortal.

 

[Gasp]

I disagree with your analysis Anysense.
HA are good as long as your opponent doesn't have longbows. Of course it's situational: does the AI techs super fast? Has he many hill cities? And many spears? Or strong UU? These are factors to take into consideration.
Here in 10 turns he'll have more than enough HA to take 2 cities from Willy (I believe 6 HA are enough to begin, with 8 it's safe). He will capture his copper as well. Willy doesn't build many units and clearly is weak. Amsterdam is a nice city! Willy can be dead by T100 as it is now (so just 15 or 20 turns of war). That's enough good arguments to me
The only mistake you could do here is to build too many HA but even so it won't hurt much because he'll be in the position to get Currency by T100 or so, just when the war ends. HAs can then be used to take barb cities (one or 2 east, one north). HAs are also good to explore...
And with not many efforts he could reach Construction and build Elepult if he wants.

Now, how long does it takes to build and move an Elepult army? Where to expand meanwhile?

 

[Anysense]

Certainly, HA rush is going to work here because Willem is a fairly soft target, but there isn't much to be gained from crushing him. The only good city is Amsterdam, the rest of his land is rather poor and cities are only worth capturing because of the conquest gold (well Utrecht is not too bad). Still can elepult Charlie and take a couple of barb cities afterwards. So it doesn't look like a bad move, I'm merely surprised at the lack of discussion. It is weird to proceed with the first plan that comes to your mind, without bothering to think of the alternatives.
A few tips for Wrathful:
1) As you are going to kill Willem early, it makes perfect sense to put all of your espionage points on someone else.
2) Trade/give away copper so you can build warriors as cheap military police. Using axemen and chariots for that purpose is awfully wasteful.
3) Don't chop much before math. You don't really need it now and math is just ~5 turns away.

 

[dutchfire]

Yes, consider razing The Hague. Attack plan should probably be Amsterdam -> Utrecht -> The Hague. Depending on how much healing you need, a ceasefire after taking Amsterdam could be considered. That would also allow you to attack Utrecht and The Hague simultaneously if you have enough units for that.