Immortal OCC (PART II)

[obsolete]

One City Challenge -- Part II

• 
  De Gaulle

Another De Gaulle game here to continue in the spirit of the OCC series.

Little bit of a tiny spoiler here...

Spoiler :

You MAY find things a lot more dangerous in this one... particularly from multiple sides, from multiple dog-piling starting very early. Then again... just maybe you'll get lucky (or unlucky).

But if you can do the first challenge... then I am confident for a good war-hungry player, this one is quite fun and easy. Ahah!

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Nice city, I wonder what size it can grow by 1 AD


Hint : There is a simple way to solve most early commerce issues.

 

[obsolete]

I originally rolled this before Christmas IIRC and did some quick testing of something a few turns into it. Realized that a lot of people may like this one start so I kept the initial save. Today I decided to re-start it and go for a legit game... Went well but I'll wait a bit before posting any spoilers.

 

[obsolete]

So... not may up for the challenge?

Here is my write-up... trying to get some games going and out of the way now, before work picks up at the end of the month again.

Start to Finish

Spoiler :

Settled in place... and was HAPPY to see the YELLOW GUY next to me.... of course he DoWs as expected.. and so did others. I naturally milked TGW just for this sceneario...

Oddly enough, even when I was at war with multiple opponents, it seemed everyone was more interested in fighting everyone else than me.... Hmmm... That's Murphy's law for you. Every time I WANT to get attacked, it almost never happens.

Not much to say... near the end of the space race, I gave the russians some big tech stuff for literally nothing. I was then surprised at how quickly they immediatley got onto the parts production. In fact, my silly gifts ended up causing the Russians to launch their ship a turn before me....

However...

I had BOTH big engines on mine... and they launched with only one so......

I launch the next turn, and STILL arrived earlier to snatch victory.. ahaha.

There was another bit of a close race... other guy North-East ended up trying to go culture (IIRC)... but my Space Ship was timed to arrive before... so no real worry there.. not unless the AI got lucky and popped some artists... yes I've seen losses that way.

At the very end I DoW just for kicks and giggles... but really that was another risk. My SDI failed to block every nuke... so I COULD have lost my only city to an attacking stack... there is a good lesson there I may have learned the hard way....

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Well, I don't know... 1 AD...
... keep all the forests, really ?

Spoiler :

In my game, Isabella has soaked up all the hate so there weren't any particular difficulties.

This map is a little more skill intensive than the previous one, due to the absence of marble and tremendous food surplus.
It means whipping the capital should actually be considered.
Also, wonders and, thus, gpp, are harder to get by.


Here, I think the best opener starts with Oracle --> Alphabet.
That lets the player backfill all the important techs, whip, chop, cottage, improve the infrastructure, etc.
With the crew that this map has, planning to trade for Alphabet doesn't seem very well indicated (whereas Oracle --> Aesthetics was a fine move in the last map).

Spoiler :

I've settled on 3 workers to improve the land.
I think this is a fine count. Of course, whipping workers helps complete wonders faster.
Given the food surplus vs happy cap balance, completing the ToA and Pyramids should (imo) take priority vs the Granary and Library.
Early wonders are the wonders one wants to rush, for there's the most competition for them.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Despite the specialists, I don't think it would be best to run Representation from this point on. Happy cap with Rep would be about 11. Our food count allows to grow much larger.
So the Pyramids, for now, unlock a Hereditaty Rule switch.
Growing the city from this early makes the Globe Theatre a real big priority : the Globe is the building that will unlock Representation for us.
But first, we go for Litterature, the Great Library and the NE.


1000 BC situation, we're growing, cottaging our riverside and delaying further chops and roading to neighbours :

Spoiler :

2nd GP is an Engineer, which is both good (can rush wonder) and bad (can't settle).
I won't rush the Parthenon, here, but store the GP in wait for Litterature and rush the Great Library.
Without marble, we're a little poor on hammers and, rather than get the Parthenon, I'd like to complete the G. Lib, NE and Globe asap.

Spoiler :

So we get a 775 BC Great Library and start on the NE.
Chops are, again, being delayed in wait for Mathematics (tech path : Litterature, Drama, Maths).

Spoiler :

400 BC Globe Theatre unlocks Representation.

Spoiler :

We get the Hanging Gardens, click some more turns, Civil Service,
And 1 AD it is, and we look pretty safe :

Spoiler :

Some more turns to Pacifism, then I'll hire specs, I suppose.
5 GPs produced at this point.

Techs :

Spoiler :

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Follow up to 820 AD :

Spoiler :

Time to call for the horde.
AIs are blown away in techs, have Philosophy, Paper and Guilds on everybody.

1200 AD, bye-bye, neighbour, we had fun while it lasted :

Spoiler :

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Question : isn't it awkward that landlocked capitals can't capture island cities in OCC ?
Space and Diplo are the only possible VCs ?


Or can we capture faraway island cities ? How so ?
Civs don't seem very much inclined to capitulate to an OCC player.


EDIT : never mind, gotcha ! Got one. It's just a little bit harder to cap an AI.

Spoiler :

 

[yyeah]

I like this spot looks like i dont have to settle GM's here to have a bit more food
But i think i will go for ot toomorow.
Hard decision beeline Alpha .
Looks like we will have enough to bulid Library.
Or maybe Mistycyzm 1st .

 

[obsolete]

It's just a little bit harder to cap an AI.

Ahah. It has been so long, I couldn't remember if it was even possible if a 1-city empire is able to capitulate an AI. Looks like we know now...

Once you capitulate the first, the others should fall in rapid succession...

 

[yyeah]

Nice crowd.

Spoiler :

Early Alpha can provide so much fun

Question.

Spoiler :

This is our land.

Problem with ti is that we dont have Marble. And i do want The Great Library and NE asap.
We do have stone so Mids + Great Library is preety nice combo.
I market 7 BFC forest witch i can choop, on all this riverside grassland tiles i want to bulid cittages. Leaveing reast for Forest Preserve - that will be 8 free specialist so not too bad i think.

And heres hard part. I will have GS in 4 turns. Considering what i wrote above.

Can i justify bulb math with 1st GS?
I realy would like to bulid Academy.
But math wont be avalible for a long time. I can allso keep running guys and bulb math with 2nd GS right befor Lit probably, but this meens no math choop in to Mids.
And i dont know do i dare to choop even 1 of this BFC forests without math.

Edit.

Now iam is it even worth to go Aste route, maybe MC, or CoL -> CS. ... in other hand theres decent amount of it can be huge mistake not going for NE.

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Interesting choice, yyeah

Spoiler :

I hadn't thought about an Alphabet beeline but I agree that Alpha is definitely the best early tech target, here. (I Oracled Alpha because in an OCC, with an IND leader, wonders are what I live and die for ^^)

The early scientist is interesting and is something that the earliest wonders prevent from getting.
a) How much would the Academy net you ? Right now ? In the next 40 turns ? When will you get your next Scientist ? What could your science output look like by then ?
b) How many turns would Maths save you on wonders ? Each math chop is +15 hammers, maybe more with OR bonus... Say you save 7 turns on the National Epic, is that good ?

I think the option you raise up is interesting and shouldn't be dismissed too hastily.
Bulb Maths... yyeah, that may be the way to go.
You surely won't be able to trade for it in a reasonable timeframe and it also sets you up for a faster Civil Service.

What other techs do you want, before Civil Service ? Aesth, Litterature and then ?
The more you beeline, the better a Maths bulb becomes.

This is all about benefits.
Costs are two-fold :
- you'll have lost a GP, so your next will likely build the Academy instead of being settled. This point I find difficult to assess, especially given the increasing costs of GPs. I suppose a tie-breaker would be the advantage gained in this timeframe ;
- you'll lose on some beakers by not settling the GS... But given your early commerce output, those beakers may not even cover the cost of Maths.

So, to me, right now, it seems you'll get more bang for your bucks with a bulb, despite losing the GP forever.
That may be wrong, though. You should keep looking into the costs and advantages and further plan your tech path + whatever wonder you're aiming for.
Right answer definitely depends on some timings (also Civic switches ?). So the better you plan, the clearer idea you'll get.


Extra question :
You don't have Litterature, yet.
In what timeframe can you get it ?
Do you have a use for the additional Math hammers in the meantime ? (hint, hint : I can see the stone isn't connected, yet.)

Once you capitulate the first, the others should fall in rapid succession...

Agreed, things went very well for me, in this one. Mostly due to favourable diplo. Also I kinda did my best to play the opener right.
I've looked at your spoilers and seen you had a hard game. Can't compare games when early wars are involved. Well done getting out of the hole regardless.

Question : Never revolt into Environmentalism ?
It wouldn't be worth the Anarchy hit, I suppose ? Is there a way around it ? (Golden Ages, Christo Redemptor, are these any good ?)


1310 AD, threshold surpassed :

Spoiler :

1000 bpt, done. Don't really want to get Sci Meth and obsolete 2 wonders, plus 4 Monasteries but I suppose that's what I'm at, now.
Not much to backfill anymore, apart from Military Science. Don't think I need Combustion.

The usual Swordsman vs Infantry stand off. Guess who wins ?

 

[yyeah]

Interesting choice, yyeah

Spoiler :

I hadn't thought about an Alphabet beeline but I agree that Alpha is definitely the best early tech target, here. (I Oracled Alpha because in an OCC, with an IND leader, wonders are what I live and die for ^^)

The early scientist is interesting and is something that the earliest wonders prevent from getting.
a) How much would the Academy net you ? Right now ? In the next 40 turns ? When will you get your next Scientist ? What could your science output look like by then ?
b) How many turns would Maths save you on wonders ? Each math chop is +15 hammers, maybe more with OR bonus... Say you save 7 turns on the National Epic, is that good ?

I think the option you raise up is interesting and shouldn't be dismissed too hastily.
Bulb Maths... yyeah, that may be the way to go.
You surely won't be able to trade for it in a reasonable timeframe and it also sets you up for a faster Civil Service.

What other techs do you want, before Civil Service ? Aesth, Litterature and then ?
The more you beeline, the better a Maths bulb becomes.

This is all about benefits.
Costs are two-fold :
- you'll have lost a GP, so your next will likely build the Academy instead of being settled. This point I find difficult to assess, especially given the increasing costs of GPs. I suppose a tie-breaker would be the advantage gained in this timeframe ;
- you'll lose on some beakers by not settling the GS... But given your early commerce output, those beakers may not even cover the cost of Maths.

So, to me, right now, it seems you'll get more bang for your bucks with a bulb, despite losing the GP forever.
That may be wrong, though. You should keep looking into the costs and advantages and further plan your tech path + whatever wonder you're aiming for.
Right answer definitely depends on some timings (also Civic switches ?). So the better you plan, the clearer idea you'll get.


Extra question :
You don't have Litterature, yet.
In what timeframe can you get it ?
Do you have a use for the additional Math hammers in the meantime ? (hint, hint : I can see the stone isn't connected, yet.)

Agreed, things went very well for me, in this one. Mostly due to favourable diplo. Also I kinda did my best to play the opener right.
I've looked at your spoilers and seen you had a hard game. Can't compare games when early wars are involved. Well done getting out of the hole regardless.

Question : Never revolt into Environmentalism ?
It wouldn't be worth the Anarchy hit, I suppose ? Is there a way around it ? (Golden Ages, Christo Redemptor, are these any good ?)

Capitol

Spoiler :

ad.A
Acedemy will net 11.25/T right now.
I dont remeber how much points next will cost beocuse i never count it .
Anyway if amount of gpps=x next GS will born in 4+x/6=y turns.
I am not sure how my output can look like by then but from my expirience it could be around 40-50 maybe 60 BPT. Lets say that Academy will give my arond 25 then.

ad.B
A lot of turns. 1st of all i would choop Mids.
So this 30 math choop would be multiplaied by InD trait and Stone.
I can bulb math in 4T, and reserch Mansonry in 4T as well.
7T NE i can live with that, i would be more happy if that could be close to 5T but 7 is allright i think.

If i go Aste -> Lit preety reasonable choice is Music and Drama for me. Need my Capitol at s13 asap to work this 7 cottages 4food resources and a little bit of , +2 GS.

Problem with this plan is that i rly rly rly want Great Engi witch meens MC.
And i rly rly rly want Caste witch meens CoL.

I dont know will i be able to bulb Philo if i use 1 GS for math and 2nd for Academy and for sure getting GE will be a lot harder.

Edit.
Christo Redemptor is a wonder witch one allways want to have i supose, provieds a lot of flexibility and options later on.
GA's i run couple of them in previous test, and i dont think GA's are that much valueable, espiecialy not 3GP GA even with MoM.
Its only 1 city, and probably settling this guys can provide more then GA. Maybe GA or GSpy are worth to use on GA.
However useing Gpsy for SY is allso not bad idea i supose if you want to try some actions.
With all this multiplaiers from one city, one can generate a lot of points, and if one can get 25% (iirc) shereing religion discount or/and 50% controling holy city discount. Stealing couple of expensive techs can be not bad play i think.
wrong
Edit2.
Actually i start to think about GW now ... but maybe not ... better use guy from Communism.

 

[dutchfire]

Great Generals: settle or attach to a unit?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Great Generals: settle or attach to a unit?

Of course, it would depend on the sort of war you're fighting.
From the perspective of a March of the rifles war, later upgraded to infantries,

I think that settling is generally the best option.
You don't need very highly promoted units to get to March (13xp) and getting 7 or 9 or more xp out of the gates gains time on several fights.

An attached GG nets 20 xp.
A settled GG thus pays off after 10 units are produced : 10 turns if you're doing it right (enough settled Prophets or production bonuses).
10 turns is a short enough timeframe to justify the settling.

It should be noted that the March promotion doesn't equate to a Medic promo : units don't heal faster, they just can heal while moving.
Therefore, to keep a steady pace, you also need several medics. Especially so if you've broken the ennemy stacks and are going for squad tactics.
The larger your tech superiority, the more appealing squad tactics become.
This is where attached GGs get most of their uses. It may be worth it to have several Great Medics, so that your squads of 5-8 March infantries can move through ennemy territory at high speed.

Before that is an option, I've found that musketeers make some good medic 1 & 2 units, due to their 2 moves.
Getting great medics is very useful once your army is set up. It isn't necessarily the highest priority. Somehow, I feel it is a luxury.
If you can afford to revolt into Theocracy or even Vassalage, then, likely, you don't need as many settled GGs and can afford Great Medics n°2 and more earlier.


If you're fighting a defensive war, different story.
Then you likely want the extra xp asap and attaching GGs gains value.

If you're fighting at tech parity, then again, different story.
The March promotion isn't necessarily the one you should be aiming for.
Attaching GGs on City Raider units and leveling them up very high is a strong option.





Bonus, e.g. @ squad tactics, 1490 AD.
A stack like this can hold its own :

Spoiler :

 

[obsolete]

About the settled GG, you are forgetting they also contribute to Rep. bonus. Another reason I like milking the GW as soon as I can.

 

[yyeah]

I lost my save could have respectable diplo win at aroud 1400AD i supose.
I have at lest couple of ss.

Spoiler :

50AD
My tech path was MC->Aste->Drama->Lit->Music->... CS

I wanted to bulid GT since i had problems and i needed to grow, The Great Library and NE, to bulb my path and Lib ->Biology (did it around 9** AD), so i decided that i wont choop this forests without Forge. Another reason was Great Engi.


1000AD

I was still thinking here about space, but becouse of this crowd i had to focus on diplo and manage to have good relations with allmoust everybody.
Turn or 2 turns after this ss i i give away my Education and gain +4 with Gilgesh and Alex.
Then i switched them in to Hindu -> firendly with Gilgesh and +9 iirc with Alex so i needed only resorces bonus with him could ideally do it befor UN.
Kublai Khan was allso friendly in couple of turns later.


Tech path from here would be preety ezy bulb Phy -> bulb Electricity -> Radio -> MM
I still had my GE with was suposed to use for Mining InC, but i could use him to speed up UN right ? ,

Iam assuming that win date could be around 1400AD but not sure allmoust never aim for diplo.
On this specific map with this crowd i was focused on my dipilo game from v begining since i didnt want to be DoW from anybody and if iam right everybody expect Isabella can plot at pleased .
So yea this reason opens up that vic condition.

Thanks for map !

 

[BornInCantaloup]

@ yyeah :
Is it really assured you can win diplo without warring ?

Spoiler :

It might be hard if you're fronted against a Hindu buddy. It seems like it would be the case (elections : you vs Cathy ?).

 

[yyeah]

@BornInCantaloup
Yes iam preety sure, but like i said not 100% sure beocuse didnt play such a game for a long time.

Spoiler :

I could switch everybody execpt Isabella in to Hindu. Iabella was mainly for war diplo bonus since she was in Bud, i wanted to be in Hindu, in this case she wouldnt like me anyway.
And if all other 4 guys would vote for me ( i could get them to friendly ... all), whatever doeasnt metter who. Iam preety sure that i would win.

Maybe someone who knows diplo games more then I do can answer this question.
If i would be friendly with 5 ais in this case would i win diplo ?

 

[BornInCantaloup]

Yes, I suppose that would make it.
Although I couldn't guarantee it, since I'm no diplo expert either

I've had the impression that, sometimes, Friendly AIs don't vote for the player because they're also Friendly with the other candidate. But maybe that's just wrong. I can't say I've paid much attention to these things.

Sorry for asking the annoying question after you've lost your save ^^
You clearly left the game in a commanding position, with a nice tech lead and means to act on the diplo.

 

[yyeah]

Sorry for asking the annoying question after you've lost your save ^^
You clearly left the game in a commanding position, with a nice tech lead and means to act on the diplo.

Thats allright loosing, this save deasnt hurts me taht much,but i lost allso save where i was playing Mieszko on Giant Earth Map on Marathon speed, with all Europe, and half of middle east under control 3 vasals, naavl army going to Vassal bouth Americas and another stack going to finish conquering MidE. Around 50 cities at 700AD... was reserching like on normal. That rly hurts .