Immortal Progress China Photojournal (of an amateur)

[amateurgamer88]

One city delayed is one city lost you know . To gain as much land as possible sometimes you have to do the very extreme as forward settling to block off AI expansion. Keeping your pathfinder with survivalisim 2 around is enough to fend off barbs in the early game until handaxe. But warrior do little to handaxe too, you will need archers.

Haha, I'm not Hiawatha AI so I don't forward settle unless they are really close. I am not trying to anger the whole world and be forced to conquer every civ. That will get boring quite fast. I want a few wars, preferably one or two at most, and turtle to a victory for once and maybe just play the AIs against one another with diplomacy.

As for defense, two warriors can do surprisingly well if you're just staying on the defensive. Archers are a bit out of the way so I think I'll got for spearman instead.

 

[chicorbeef]

One city delayed is one city lost you know . To gain as much land as possible sometimes you have to do the very extreme as forward settling to block off AI expansion. Keeping your pathfinder with survivalisim 2 around is enough to fend off barbs in the early game until handaxe. But warrior do little to handaxe too, you will need archers.

As China going Progress I try to only settle 1-2 cities before Classical (I rush Classical) and then go on a settling spree. Not sure if this is optimal but it's fun to have 10 cities out with the full bonus of the UA in Classical. My culture goes through the roof.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Chapter 2: It Keeps Getting Better

Spoiler I. Hey Indonesia :

Indonesia can be an interesting civ from my experience. His UA gives him a resource that he can get monopoly of quite easily and those monopolies can be quite powerful early game. It's usually not surprising when Indonesia has the strongest military and, given the right conditions, he can expand quite rapidly early on. If he was close by, conquering him certainly wouldn't be a bad idea but, luckily for him, he isn't (at least I don't think so).

Spoiler II. The Forward Settler :

The Iroquois has forward settled me far too often if he's even remotely close. If there's a civ I can see as competition for territory, the Iroquois is certainly high on the list. I need to find his capital because that can change my approach for the rest of the game. I usually spam Settlers to a certain extent but, if the Iroquois is going to be a problem, I will have to grab the most defensive locations and work with those.

Spoiler III. Found Warsaw :

Poland is quite far from me so I'm not worried one bit. Not that I would ever worry about him since, in the early game, we are more or less on an even playing field (if you ignore Immortal AI bonuses of course). Even if he is close, I don't worry about fighting wars against him since I know I can hold against him. The Iroquois might be a different story with how early his UU is.

Spoiler IV. There's Onondaga :

Japan is between me and the Iroquois? I don't know if that's a blessing or a curse considering that I would bet on the Iroquois to win their wars, at least the early ones, against Japan. There does seem to be a mountain range between the two civs so it's possible that they can't reach one another easily. That's good news for me overall as stalemates for those two civs will benefit me without a doubt.

Spoiler V. About that Pantheon :

I believe that I was the second to get a Pantheon so I have plenty of options. God of War (I never intended on picking it) was taken by Spain. I looked through it all and narrowed them down to either Earth Mother or Goddess of Fertility. One gives me extra gold early game and the incentive to work more productive tiles. The other give me growth that can work quite well with the food I get from Mandate of Heaven. In the end, I picked Earth Mother because I felt the faith I gain from it will be faster since Settler production is slow and who knows when I'll be getting more Shrines.

Spoiler VI. New Policy :

If it weren't for the fact that I have Gold resource so close by, this can be a tough choice. However, I can afford to buy my first Worker and he's already connecting my Gold to provide me with more gold and faith. As I connect more Gold, I can trade them and get some nice sum of gold once I get Declaration of Friendship with a few civs. The good thing about Immortal AI is their income which means they can provide a reasonable sum of gold to help me get further ahead.

Spoiler VII. Curse Morocco... :

Morocco, as expected, is making rapid progress and already entered the Classical Age. I believe I only have a handful of techs so he really beelined for Writing. I don't know why he did that when he lacks the policies to build the Great Library but it's the AI and he can get away with it, unless I take that Wonder of course. For the time being, I'm just searching for the best locations to settle and my Pathfinder just can't explore fast enough so my Settler and Warrior are exploring too.

Spoiler VIII. Birth of Guangzhou :

I've found my third city and this will be a production heavy city for sure. One issue will be food as Sheep don't provide a ton of food and I have no floodplains anywhere near here. Given that I don't have neighbors near here, I can expand further out and then fill the space later. I will be pumping out Settlers until my happiness hovers around 1 or so. I know people tell me that unhappiness isn't an issue but my playstyle says no to that.

Spoiler IX. New Policy :

Mandate of Heaven is so powerful with only two cities settled as I'm getting another policy already. Building infrastructure is going to be quite beneficial at this rate and I'm glad I went this route. My income is pretty good at this point with all the trades happening and I can buy more Workers to connect everything. I'm glad they don't allow you to purchase Settlers because that would be so broken.

Spoiler X. Surprised No One Wanted This :

This was quite a gamble but I saw it was available and it's a nice Wonder to have. A bit less Distress in all my cities and I expect a few wars since I know, with my luck, there will be AIs that will settle too close and gets taught a harsh lesson by the mighty China. I guess, since we don't have the normally warlike candidates (never seen the Iroquois build this though), none of the AIs really prioritized it. Alright, I should return to getting Settler production then.

Well, that's it for our update! Is the Statue of Zeus an indication of a war soon?

 

[amateurgamer88]

As China going Progress I try to only settle 1-2 cities before Classical (I rush Classical) and then go on a settling spree. Not sure if this is optimal but it's fun to have 10 cities out with the full bonus of the UA in Classical. My culture goes through the roof.

Haha, I was considering that but I feel like China is OP enough to get ahead nonetheless. At this point, I do believe that China is the most OP civ I've played so far. They can win any victory quite easily and I do want to see how well they can adapt to Random Victory.

 

[YukiN]

I'm surprised you went for SoZ, though it is quite good here. I would have gone for Petra and never looked back.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I'm surprised you went for SoZ, though it is quite good here. I would have gone for Petra and never looked back.

The reason why I went SoZ was because I got Bronze Working. Barbarians were becoming a problem and I really need Spearman to help me defend against them and clear out camps more efficiently than Warriors. I also don't want to advance era too quickly because my bonuses would be gone and I like to enjoy them as long as I can. In addition, I went Earth Mother so Iron can give up to 2 faith once improved and I can sell them for gold as I don't have uses for them yet.

 

[Minh Le]

Why you pick Progress in the 1st place while youre going to war, even going for SoZ... Authority in this case is extremely strong. Get trapping and form an army of archers and SoZ spearmans and go rampage! Raze the world for culture and food and gold and science. Its fun and also extremely strong .

 

[amateurgamer88]

Why you pick Progress in the 1st place while youre going to war, even going for SoZ... Authority in this case is extremely strong. Get trapping and form an army of archers and SoZ spearmans and go rampage! Raze the world for culture and food. Its fun and also extremely strong .

Well, that's what's happened with my Portugal and Austria games where it's an all out war. I will go for a few wars this game but, overall, I want to stay peaceful and see how strong it is to develop with Progress. China is pretty strong overall so I can experiment with those sort of things.

 

[YukiN]

Why you pick Progress in the 1st place while youre going to war, even going for SoZ... Authority in this case is extremely strong. Get trapping and form an army of archers and SoZ spearmans and go rampage! Raze the world for culture and food and gold and science. Its fun and also extremely strong .

I think SoZ is fine even for peaceful builds. You don't get as much from the 15% against cities, but it lets you skip Military Theory for a good while to get other techs. The happiness also lets you skimp on military buildings on your expands for a while longer as the unhappiness from distress is reduced.

 

[Minh Le]

Its opportunity cost. Going for SoZ means you wont get Mausoleum or Artermist. Both are much better for peaceful game, and BOTH are synergy very well with China. I dont see anything special in SoZ unless for very early war.
Even Pyramids is better

 

[YukiN]

Its opportunity cost. Going for SoZ means you wont get Mausoleum or Artermist. Both are much better for peaceful game, and BOTH are synergy very well with China. I dont see anything special in SoZ unless for very early war.
Even Pyramids is better

I agree on that I suppose. As I have said, I would personally have gone Petra here, but Mausoleum may just be much better for China because of her UA.

 

[chicorbeef]

I thought that this was a wonderful Petra start. I think a Survivalism Pathfinder, Warriors + Archers can defend against Barbs fine. However you are well poised for aggression should you need to do so (judging by the pattern of your games) so SoZ could be a better decision than I'm giving it credit for.

While Earth Mother is solid the problem I always find with this is that it's so slow. How would Spirit of the Desert have been here?

 

[YukiN]

I thought that this was a wonderful Petra start. I think a Survivalism Pathfinder, Warriors + Archers can defend against Barbs fine. However you are well poised for aggression should you need to do so (judging by the pattern of your games) so SoZ could be a better decision than I'm giving it credit for.

While Earth Mother is solid the problem I always find with this is that it's so slow. How would Spirit of the Desert have been here?

He is expanding out of the desert, so probably not. I would have considered a non-terrain dependent pantheon since there isn't a terrain based one that really stands out there. God-King, for instance, is quite strong with your rapid expansion and growth.

I don't consider Fertility good as you really don't need the extra food with your UA.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I think SoZ is fine even for peaceful builds. You don't get as much from the 15% against cities, but it lets you skip Military Theory for a good while to get other techs. The happiness also lets you skimp on military buildings on your expands for a while longer as the unhappiness from distress is reduced.

Given my history with AIs settling close to me, I'm pretty sure I will be going to war eventually so the 15% isn't completely wasted. A free Barracks is always nice when there are so many other buildings to get in my capital. In addition, I do deny the other AIs so they won't get the bonus. Slowing down their conquests can make a big difference for sure.

Its opportunity cost. Going for SoZ means you wont get Mausoleum or Artermist. Both are much better for peaceful game, and BOTH are synergy very well with China. I dont see anything special in SoZ unless for very early war.
Even Pyramids is better

Well, I went for Bronze Working for the spearman (for defense) and Iron (for the faith due to Earth Mother). SoZ just happened to be a bonus since I got a CS quest which means that nobody is building it and I can get it quite reliably. I didn't grab the Wonder because I wanted a Wonder. It was just available and I helped myself to it. While Mausoleum, Artemis and Pyramids are better Wonders, they require me to tech differently from what I already did. So far, I only have Pottery, Mining and Bronze Working. If I wanted any of those other three Wonders, I'd need to research another tech before I unlock the tech that gives me access to them. I usually don't go heavy with Ancient Era Wonders so getting even a single one is better than nothing.

I agree on that I suppose. As I have said, I would personally have gone Petra here, but Mausoleum may just be much better for China because of her UA.

If I had a luxury that gets boosted by Markets, I might've considered Petra and picked a pantheon that is more closely tied to it. Instead, I got Gold so I have to work with that and then transition into a unit that helps me against barbarians.

I thought that this was a wonderful Petra start. I think a Survivalism Pathfinder, Warriors + Archers can defend against Barbs fine. However you are well poised for aggression should you need to do so (judging by the pattern of your games) so SoZ could be a better decision than I'm giving it credit for.

While Earth Mother is solid the problem I always find with this is that it's so slow. How would Spirit of the Desert have been here?

Like I said, SoZ is just a Wonder I had a chance to grab and I had the techs. I was going Shrine first so Stonehenge would be a waste. If I went for other Wonder, it would be for greed and I don't think they're ideal since I get nothing else out of those techs (and there's no guarantee I'll get them either given how quickly the AI tech this early on). It might not be the most ideal but it's still something. As for Petra, it's wonderful in the situation where I need Trade asap. I didn't think this was the game for that.

Earth Mother isn't the fastest but, with China, I can always go Shrine first with all my cities. In addition, this makes connecting Iron more important because you get more faith and gold from trading it with other civs. It's certainly not the fastest faith generating pantheon but it's not too bad and more gold helps as I can purchase Workers to help improve my cities faster.

Spirit of the Desert is a pretty good option. I guess this depends on what you are focusing on. For my situation, Spirit of the Desert can give me more production for my capital due to connecting those Gold tiles and eventually the Iron tile. I get the same amount of gold from this Pantheon as Earth Mother but one less Faith from the Iron tile. Earth Mother is nice since I'm already getting a nice boost to growth to all my cities due to my UA and an extra hammer for every 3 pop can make a big difference this early on. I guess it's a matter of do I want to make my capital stronger with one less faith or do I want to make all of my cities stronger somewhat even if they don't have a resource that's improved by mines.

He is expanding out of the desert, so probably not. I would have considered a non-terrain dependent pantheon since there isn't a terrain based one that really stands out there. God-King, for instance, is quite strong with your rapid expansion and growth.

I don't consider Fertility good as you really don't need the extra food with your UA.

God King is an interesting choice that I didn't consider. I guess that's what happens when you play China only a second time and you overlook the UA's growth potential. As for Fertility, I see it as a faster way to get faith. The growth isn't enormous but I'll be building Shrine in all my cities so the faith can really accumulate once I get a couple of cities out. None of them are spectacular but I have picked one and will go with it.

 

[YukiN]

I find that you can try for Petra a little later than normal. It is locked behind a second policy, has quite a stringent terrain requirement, and is on a tech the AI does not seem to favour. There is a really good chance you could have still have gotten it if you teched to trade after bronze working. Progress means you tech a little faster and desert starts are usually not as production heavy as yours. In fact, you might still be able to get it, but the risk is bigger now and you'll be delaying cities. If it doesn't go after you settle your core cities, maybe you can still try for it.

Take note of when it goes this game to get a sense of the AI.

For reference, consider my Germany game. Egypt got a desert start and built the Great Library before Petra.

 

[amateurgamer88]

I find that you can try for Petra a little later than normal. It is locked behind a second policy, has quite a stringent terrain requirement, and is on a tech the AI does not seem to favour. There is a really good chance you could have still have gotten it if you teched to trade after bronze working. Progress means you tech a little faster and desert starts are usually not as production heavy as yours. In fact, you might still be able to get it, but the risk is bigger now and you'll be delaying cities. If it doesn't go after you settle your core cities, maybe you can still try for it.

Take note of when it goes this game to get a sense of the AI.

For reference, consider my Germany game. Egypt got a desert start and built the Great Library before Petra.

I fear that Petra isn't possible because one civ is quite ahead in tech (Morocco) and he got Writing. Since he can't build the Great Library due to policy requirements, he has to build other Wonders and Petra is one of them. I didn't take note of when it went but it was pretty soon.

That is quite odd but Egypt isn't that ahead. I think, at one point, Morocco is like several techs ahead of everyone so he's getting the tech before he has the policies which matters a lot.

 

[amateurgamer88]

Chapter 3: Someone Challenges China

Spoiler I. Birth of Nanjing :

Another city is settled and Nanjing is going to be quite production heavy with a bit of food to get started. The deer, once improved, will help a bit along with my UA while the Gold and Iron will give this city plenty of production and faith. It's also tiles away from a Mountain so I can use this city to build Wonders like the Machu Picchu. Once I get buildings like Granary and Aqueduct, this city should grow to a reasonable size.

Spoiler II. New Policy :

I finally get my free Worker but, at this point, I already have 3 Workers up due to the trades and solid GPT. I do intend to settle more cities so I don't mind more Workers. Let's also not forget that I will probably have a war or two and AIs are usually quite generous in gifting their Workers to me with some questionable moves. Overall, I do believe I had a tough decision to make with my next policy.

Spoiler III. Someone is Pushing His Luck :

Japan shouldn't be settling towards me but, to be fair, where else will he go? I guess the conflict between China and Japan is inevitable but, for the time being, I'm not shifting into military production yet. I'm glad Japan has his UU in Medieval Era because I definitely want to end our conflict before then. I don't need to give myself a big disadvantage by fighting Japan when he's the strongest.

Spoiler IV. Found Constantinople :

Byzantium and Poland are quite close so I expect some big wars between these two civs. I wouldn't even be surprised if one of them is eliminated before Medieval Age. I think Poland is the more likely candidate since he's sandwiched between Byzantium and the Iroquois, two neighbors you don't want to have with the Iroquois having his UU in Classical and Byzantium having her UU in Medieval.

Spoiler V. Birth of Xian :

I need to secure this location to stop Japan from getting easy access to my capital. I'm still hesitant about the desert territory to the east because it's pretty meh overall and I don't know if I want to waste a city there. I haven't discovered the entire coast to the east yet so the resources there might change my mind. For the time being, I need to settle a few more cities and see how Japan decides to play the settling game.

Spoiler VI. Time for war? :

Kagoshima is at a decent location for Japan but it's certainly annoying for me. After all, Japan is steadily boxing me in with his cities and I don't like that one bit. I think I'm going to settle one more city before I transition into military production. Remember the SoZ? That's going to help me due to the free Barracks giving my new units a promotion. I just need a few more techs like Mathematics to get Catapults for our war.

Spoiler VII. Birth of Chengdu :

I will admit outright that this isn't a great city. It's not even a good city. However, I need to prevent AIs from settling right there and cause me problems by forcing me to deploy some units to deal with it later in the game. I got the city and, due to my UA, I'll benefit a bit from it. I am working on Writing so my benefits from the UA will be dropping soon. I sometimes wonder how you time your techs to get the most out of your UA.

Spoiler VIII. Time for War! :

Japan is really pushing his luck with the settling of Nara. I can understand Kagoshima and Satsuma but Nara is a clear indication that Japan intends of mess with me. If he wants war, then he will get war. I just need a few more techs and more markets to further boost my GPT. I don't think settling more cities is a good idea until I deal with this threat known as Japan. Japan has messed with the wrong civ because I'm not so merciful as the Iroquois.

Spoiler IX. Found Madrid :

It's quite terrifying that, given what I explored so far, Spain seems to have this corner of the continent all to herself. Will Spain pose as another threat in this game? To be honest, I'm more worried about Morocco because he usually does quite well in all my games and, if it weren't for the fact that I'm playing an OP civ, I'd be very worried. Spain isn't expanding too rapidly so I don't expect her to be a serious problem until much later.

Spoiler X. Found Marrakech :

I finally discover the Morocco capital and it's not where I expected. He's apparently east of the Iroquois and I don't know how I feel about that. Morocco went Progress which does explain how he got such a lead in tech. I don't know how but the AI tends to get more techs through taking the Progress opener. For now, I do want to see if I can get the Great Library and catch up to Morocco more easily.

Well, that's it for our update! Is Japan going to regret his cities soon?

 

[Minh Le]

Do you have the turn 0 save of this game? Can you share it? It was such a strong start, I really want to try it .

 

[chicorbeef]

Well I like the timing of your expansions since you just about got Fraternity by the time you got to the Classical Era and you'll have some procs by conquering Japan's cities. Are you planning to raze/resettle?

I think you could have fit like 4 cities in the region where Guangzhou/Chengdu was settled. Places with high Production are great as China because China's food allows you to work the Sheep/Mines. I have a tendency to overexpand sometimes (I use secondary cities to help built Settlers btw) but as China I just can't help but to want and try and use every bit of land I have. I like to build around good Production spots (Stone, Hills, Sheep/Iron, Deer), especially as Progress, and that you have.

I think rushing Writing when you want Catapults is maybe not the best choice because building Paper Makers is a lot of Production diverted away from war. Also, why sell your Horses when you can build Horsemen/Archers and attack those unwalled cities? I am a bit of a Horseman junkie though and I have failed Horseman rushed before and tbh Progress warfare is not my strong suit. With all that Iron and having sold your Horses Swords are worth considering too.

I have mixed experiences with China overall. Sometimes I do crazy well and I blow away in everything. Sometimes I am doing crazy well but I get invaded and it all falls apart. Sometimes I just don't have room to expand and that makes me a sad Panda.

 

[YukiN]

Progress is the weakest tree for early war, so maybe delaying is not a bad option. Japan is strong with their samuari yes, but China gets her logistics crossbowmen at about the same time. I would just play as normal and not force wars too early since your power spikes relative to each other is entirely dependent on science.

Satsuma's location tho. The AI must be hopped up on all the thanksgiving food.