Immortal Ramesses (Shadow Game Request)

[Arromir]

I received some great advice from everyone that replied to my monarch games, so now I'm trying to give immortal a shot. If anyone has any advice on how best to do the turn sets, please let me know.

For now I've uploaded the initial save as well as a couple screenshots of the starting location (pangea map, events and huts are off). Let me know what you guys think!

Spoiler :

I went ahead and moved the warrior 1SE since it looked like we had more floodplains that way. It looks like there's probably at least a few more in the fog as well. I'm guessing the PH is a given, as loosing a plains cow isn't a big deal.

Obviously we also have stone in the picture. Given that this is immortal, are the Pyramids an option? And if so what's the general plan? I'm still learning on how to properly manage GPs, so any insight will be much appreciated!

If there's anything else I should consider, please let me know.

 

[lymond]

Great help from Sampsa in the other thread. Looks like you are picking up things again swiftly. With IMM now, you will definitely need to be more focused on tech path, micro more, and make good settling decision....condensing your empire as much as possible and making use of overlap.

PH is okay, but tough not having any possible food resources. Settling on Stone is another option, as you gain some FPs and keep the cow. Cow not great as food resource, but it is a strong tile for settler/worker production. Settling on stone also brings it online immediately when masonry teched. Mids is certainly in the cards with Rambo, as well as GW failgold.

You lose a turn either way, so I would move settler to PH this turn - as it will reveal more, and then we can make a decision whether settling there or on stone is best.

 

[Arromir]

Spoiler :

Moving the settler revealed four more FPs, two of which we would loose to get the cows. Would that be a worthwhile trade off?

Unfortunately I have to get up in about five hours, so it's for me.

 

[InovA]

Settling on Stone is worth considering, it keeps the cows and the bonus. I moved on the PH for vision, too. Loved the sight of all those FPs, now we should weigh the benefits of both spots:

• Stone Settle: Keeps Cows (+3/+3), Keeps a possible resource 1S of Cows (with Oasis irrigation), has 5 FPs, 2 Grass river tiles (including spice), 5 forests, 2 hill tiles for mines
• PH Settle - Has 7 FPs, 4 Grass river tiles (including spice), 3 forests, Stone as a workable tile (+1/+4)

The PH Settle has a noticeably strong mid/late game with around 10 river towns available! The starting tech also looks like it'd be Pottery (!), so you'd have a very rapid start on these. The lack of a food resource means little whipping should occur and your tech path beyond Pottery is a little hazy. Maybe it involves fast writing for an amazingly fast Academy, likely involves grabbing fast BW and Masonry, you'll need extra hammers somehow, and might involve going for the Oracle.

The Stone Settle can still have a very respectable mid/late game with around 6 river towns available. Your tech would start AH, likely followed by Pottery. This may reveal horses nearby, indicating a War Chariot rush available! The (+3/+3) Cows is twice as good as FP tiles towards generating Settlers/Workers and will cause your empire to expand much, much faster. The tech path will follow the same basic setup as above, just starting with AH, though.

In the end, it looks like the Stone Settle speeds up the early game by several turns and has a (slightly) more defined tech path. The early game is what's most important for your capital city anyways, and the pros of the PH Settle are practically mirrored by the Stone Settle, so settling on Stone seems like the best option in the end.

Possible early plays I see for this game:

• War Chariot rush
• [If Ivory nearby] -> Elepult rush
  
• Oracle -> CoL -> CS for a great Bureau-cap (pretty standard play, great with all those FPs)
• Oracle -> MC (prechopped forests in 2nd city, rush forge, rush GE) GE finishes Pyramids
• REX to 5 - 6 cities with many cottages throughout, may opt to build Pyramids if there's enough food around
• [From either Pyramids route] -> rush the Great Library (especially if Marble hooked up)

If you find Marble or very good food around, a Pyramids route can be strong, otherwise I don't like it as much as the Oracle -> CoL -> CS fast Bureau-cap route.

 

[sampsa]

Agree with the advice given so far. I wouldn't settle on the plains hill now and go pottery though, as it's very slow to get the settler out (going to be like T41 @size 3 working cottages, IMO unacceptably slow).

So settle on stone, go AH and you'll have a fast start, like InovA suggests. Pyramids is a great wonder, especially with this leader.

 

[lymond]

I'll post up my game til 225AD:

Spoiler :

Interesting game. Fairly strong start. I went AH>Fish>Pot>Myst>Masonry>BW to start. Horses were close enough to not worry too much about BW.

Took out Justy. Tech a bit slow due to gold issues taking Byz, but just got Music and used GE on TGL. Built Mids and HG in Thebes..pretty much slow built HG..one chop. Mids was build with settler whips and a chop or two.

Coupla Biz cities in a bit of a culture mess with Pericles, but okay.

CS should be in soon...Probably run great artist GA here in a turn or two..just waiting for a bit more growth. Not great CS date, but empire is pretty nice. Curs certainly in the cards.

Oh..crab below Thebes was nice. Thebes has mainly been using it. Got boat outta Memphis just East asap. Memphis will eventually take it.

GW gave 150 fail gold

 

[Fippy]

It's a bit counterproductive with WCs and learning games, i think you get more from a forum game if you avoid rushing with them Arromir.

 

[Arromir]

@lymond

Spoiler :

Did you go for fishing and mysticism in that order to get the discount for having both prereqs?

@Fippy I'm actually still trying to work out my rushing skills, as often I'm not sure when I have enough units or miss some things while focusing on war. I understand how it may make it easier, but I wouldn't want to handicap myself on purpose.

 

[lymond]

Yep, for the prereqs, but I definitely

Spoiler :

wanted Fish for the crab as I settled horses due E to tile share with Thebes, which I think is probably the best move here..fast horses and cottage/crab sharing with Thebes, although Thebes used crabs for most of time. At the time I thought I needed Obelisk for a city so might as well pick up Myst since Masonry was a no brainer. Plus, Peri and Kublai are annoying CRE leaders. Fish an Myst or one or the other could have been ignored as well, and i probably would have on Deity, although with Ag/Wheel start as Egypt, if you have need for Fish you might as well get the POT bonus.

I put bits of OF into GW once masonry was in..actually got it to one turn in Thebes. Coud have finished it but barbs not an issue and I did not want to pollute the pool.

Yep, My is right that WCs are a bit OP for learner games, but Arromir is quite a bit more advanced player than usual. I say use em if you got em though, and

Spoiler :

Justinator is a very ripe target

But do listen to My though..she is like Wonder Woman with this game, and I"m like a really bad sidekick with a high squeaky voice who gets killed off in the first 15 minutes.

 

[Benginal]

It's a bit counterproductive with WCs and learning games, i think you get more from a forum game if you avoid rushing with them Arromir.

True story.

To Turn 107:

Spoiler :

SIP is probably fine, but settling on stone is always fun.

Worker and AH first. I need targets and horses. Found the targets:

And there are the horses:

Worker steals are tough deity, but work just fine up until Immortal:

Zoinks, that's a lot of archers you got there:

How about I pick on someone my own size:

Has the added benefit of giving me some much needed gold. I messed up the tech order pretty bad. AH -> Mining -> BW seems alright. But then I went Writing and the started on alphabet, . Not sure what I was thinking. Definitely needed pottery in there sooner. For sure the largest mistake of this set.

Justinian fell easily enough though (classic three turn war):

Spoiler: my, my, that's a lot of forests you get there.

Then, instead of teching fishing for working coast I thought I'd be able to get through alphabet. Idiot. Luckily, the Immortal AIs are willing to help out. I'd cease fired with Greece, but was ready to re-declare and take these two free farmers:

Note there was only one (to become two) archers in Sparta:

I took Sparta and then took peace again. I had other things in the empire that needed my attention. Remember all those forests around Constantinople:

Third time's the charm:

Spoiler: my, my, that's quite a lot of forests you have there.

The empire in 900 BC. 7 cities, the pyramids, 7 chariots (17 were built), 8 workers, and a massive deficit bleeding through my cash like crazy. Alphabet nowhere in sight.

Took a fishing break:

The next few turns were pretty gross. Working a ton of 1F2C coast to not go bankrupt and roading to Rome as quickly as possible (should have done that ages ago, another major mistake of the round). Alphabet finally comes in -- way too late to be useful.

Well, not entirely useless:

Sailing helped with trade routes, hunting for the elephants, and Mysticism on the way to Lit.

Thought about an Academy, but opted for Maths: I wanted the HG.

Punk:

But ... he can't reach me because he and Rome don't have open borders. :

Three pop whip the Aqueduct. Overflow + 2 chops =

Messed up a worker, should have been on that PC tile. No worries, gave me a chance to settle one more city first. Played a few more turns up to Currency and the game looks in the bag.

Tech parity + mids + stone, marble, industrious + every happiness resource + secure borders and allies with my Jewish buddies.

Good fun! Would head to Lit -> Music -> Golden Age -> Lib -> Cuirs.

 

[Arromir]

Spoiler :

I only had enough time to get through the first 40 turns, and this is where I am so far. Got the second settler out at 3 pop to grab the horses. As has been mentioned, the crabs will be a nice boost to Thebes.

I'm one turn away from Masonry, however the GW already got build the turn prior, so no fail gold for me. I'll pick up Mining and BW next to jump start the slow production so far.

Obviously Justinian has a big target on his back. Although not visible in this screenshot, we spotted Greek borders to the north, so unless Justinian has room in the east he will probably expand in our direction. Here is where my uncertainty with early aggression comes in. How many cities should I settle before getting the WC going? The pig/gem next to the barb city is the next spot I want to claim. Should I also grab the rice to the west before committing to war?

 

[elitetroops]

@Arromir:

Spoiler :

No point going masonry here before BW. Masonry only gives you some ability to failgold wonders, but that is not worth much if you can't chop or put whip overflow into them. Slowbuilding wonders for failgold at this stage of the game should not be done.

If you're doing a WC rush, hook up horse and start building war chariots immediately. Your aim is to get to your target before they hook up metals, which can be pretty early on immortal. Those other city spots can wait.

 

[Arromir]

Spoiler :

The last couple days have been pretty busy for me, but I finally managed to play a decent amount of turns, also stopping at 225 AD to get a comparison with @lymond. I know you guys said WC should make this easy, but this was a bloody trial by fire .

I played through the first 70 turns a handful of times trying to find a balance between rushing Justinian and grabbing spots for my third and fourth city. If I focused strictly on the former, Pericles would expand south leaving me almost no room, and if I focused on the later Justinian would be at five or six cities with a crazy amount of archers.

Needless to say I was starting to question if I'd be able to crack Justinian when I finally succeeded:

Spoiler :

Justinian had six cities at this point, and I barely managed to finish him off with only four WCs and the GG healrer left standing. I razed the last city (1S of the two mountains in the east), since my economy was in shambles and it had very little to offer. Unfortunately Nicomedia would succumb to all the cultural pressure coming out of Greece and flip a handful of turns later. I wasn't able to get the library out in time, and I'm not familiar enough with the culture flipping mechanic to know if that would have been enough to prevent it. Coupled with stealing my gems, this dude has it coming... somewhere in the far future.

Spoiler :

This is the state of my cities at 225 AD. My economy has finally started somewhat recovering and my beleaguered workers are trying to catch up with the land. I was desperately short workers the whole war as I didn't dare stop pumping out WCs for even a moment.

I've attached my current save as well as the end of the war if anyone would like to take a look. I'm sure there's a number of things I messed up or missed.

@lymond

Spoiler :

If you wouldn't mind going into some details of how you managed your expansion vs war effort I would greatly appreciate it. Not sure how you managed to fit the wonders in there - I didn't have time to even think about it .

 

[Benginal]

Arromir:

Spoiler :

If you wouldn't mind going into some details of how you managed your expansion vs war effort I would greatly appreciate it. Not sure how you managed to fit the wonders in there - I didn't have time to even think about it .

Expansion: I built only 1 settler in my game -- the other cities were taken from Justinian, Pericles and the Barbs. You can generally count on the barbs to build a few cities for you in jungle belts. And you don't have to worry about Pericles expanding there if you take him out also. EDIT: False (it's been a few days) after the wars I built 2 more settlers -- one in Thebes and the other in city 2 to fill the area between the empire and the barb cities on the river.

Economy: Tricky to be sure. Working coast, getting foreign trade routes, working cottages when possible. Don't be afraid to bring the economy to the brink of collapse. If you are still earning gold with the research slider off you can keep attacking.

Wonder: Not exactly sure what @lymond did, but I was able to chop out both the pyramids and the Hanging Gardens and still have forests left for NE, HE, and TGLib.

 

[Pedro78]

I probably won't play this game but I'll drop my 2 cents

Spoiler :

WC rush is of course the best option here, but you won't always have an OP unique unit.

What I see is very good land to expand to 5-6 cities, but low on forests and no marble so the GP production won't be huge. I'd say skip fishing and get out a GS to bulb engineering. Should be able to get it before 500BC no problem. Then just roll over the map. This strategy would work with any leader that doesen't start with fishing and is IMO superior to cuirs here. Mids can be good but are not required as you've got plenty of rivers to cottage & cheap forges for 2pop trebs.

 

[Arromir]

Well my primary laptop decided to go ahead and die on me... fortunately even a brick can run Civ 4 these days... unfortunately I lost the saves from that computer. Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone for their advice. I played to about 1000 AD, and my economy had recovered nicely to a point where I had a pretty comfortable lead on the AI. Since Pedro78 promised a new NC map later today, I'll just jump in on that once its up.