Immortal Shadow Game - Suryavarman II of Khmer

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Ok. A new game. Brand new. I'm going in blind. Well, I rerolled twice because I didn't want a seafood start, but this looks playable. The plan is to take this one much slower. Let me know if the pace isn't right. Again, I am trying to improve my game, so let me know if you see that I've made a mistake, and whether you think it's fatal.

Leader: Suryavarman II
Expansive & Creative
Cheap workers, granaries, and libraries. Nothing to complain about there. The extra health is just a bonus. Plus, I don't have to build monuments for border pops. A lot of benefits early on.

I don't often build grocers aqueducts so the UB might not see much play. The UU looks nice, but is situational. In the few games I've ever played with this leader, I've never had ivory, so I can't speak from experience.

Settings:
Pangea, No huts, No events, standard size, normal speed.
Edit: forgot to mention it's Immortal difficulty

Spoiler Settings :

Spoiler Start Position :

Personally, I like SIP. I can't imagine the scout finding anything on T0 that would change that, but I'll probably send him 1SW then 1NW 1W to check out what appears to be coastline there.

Riverside, 2 PH start, with lots of FP cottages and a wet corn... Sounds good to me. The fact that corn is the only resource I can see tells me there is either something in the fog to the east, or metal in the BFC. Unless the map script counts FP as a resource?

Thoughts?

I've attached the Worldbuilder and BUFFY save files. I have no idea why my WB saves end up with a different file extension to everyone else's.

 

[sampsa]

Khmer UB is an aqueduct unless I'm mistaken.

Spoilers just in case someone doesn't want to know my thoughts

Spoiler :

Obvious SIP, but it doesn't hurt to move the scout first. To me, coast is the least interesting idea area. It's pangaea, you will fo agri first, all immortal AI start with agri -> run towards the center of the map especially since you start with a scout. I assume you are select/de-selecting first tech until T5. You do win simply by meeting as many AI as possible pre-T5.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Ack. You're right, of course. I'll fix that. Doesn't matter. I don't build aqueducts very often either.

And yes, I usually delay first tech until T5. Didn't bother last game because I don't think anyone starts with AH.

 

[sampsa]

in my game, select/de-select and meeting AIs gained

Spoiler :

6*2=12 as I was able to meet 5 AI by T5. It's +1pt if you manage to meet at least 3 AI and +2pt if you manage to meet at least 5 AI, and you get the on T6. So I think it's certainly worth both bothering to click twice each turn and running towards the center asap instead of starting to scout for city spots immediately.

True, even without se/de-s I'd have gained 6 as I think I had met 3AI by T3 and 5 by T5. If you don't meet anyone or tech something nobody can have (AH/BW for example) it doesn't matter.

edit: no wait, that's not how it works at all.

So I was generating first 3T 10, then for the next 3T 9 (border pop allows to work plains forest for EXP bonus towards worker). Then there is the hidden 1 per turn, leading to 63. THEN the is released towards a tech and the game checks for -bonus for AIs who know the tech. On T6 I had 76 towards agri so the bonus was 13, not 12. It's because the bigger chunk you release towards a tech at once the bigger chance there is you won't get rounded down. Thus, even if your first tech is AH/BW, you should always select/de-select because it might gain 1 due to pre-requisite bonus and rounding.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

First five turns done.

Spoiler :

I haven't looked at Sampsa's post yet, but here are my first thoughts...

Based on his advice, I took my scout immediately east instead. Found Peter's capital and met two others (no idea where they went).

I know it's early days but that gold city looks nice if I can grab it, then put enough culture in it to keep it. Peter won't like me, so I'll probably have to rush him. Axes or HAs depending on what I've got. Either way, I think he's my first target.

The next two cities I've got marked are for sharing FP cottages. Of course, all this is dependent on what else is in the fog.

Next:
I plan to circle my scout back around to the south to check out the land there, then maybe cut back up to the NW of my cap where he'll probably live to fogbust.

Warrior after my worker in cap. I feel like I need a second warrior before the settler (there's a lot of fog), but a settler at size 2 would be nice - especially if I want to steal Peter's gold.

 

[sampsa]

using spoilers in case some people prefer to be totally unspoiled

Spoiler :

Maybe I also got lucky to meet more AIs, but I think my path with the scout was more accurate. I think you can see that you are north of the equator (from the trees?) so i sprinted to SE.

You need to stop daydreaming about claiming a spot like that on immortal. It's just very unlikely you will get it and I'm not sure if it's that good even. Look, you have very strong connected spots by your capital! Food, river, floodplains - strawberry fields, remember?

Try to avoid losing the scout, it's quite annoying to lose it now when you need to scout to many directions. Warrior next, sure.

Next tech?

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler :

Maybe I also got lucky to meet more AIs, but I think my path with the scout was more accurate. I think you can see that you are north of the equator (from the trees?) so i sprinted to SE.

Right. I didn't pick up on that. I turned SE once I spotted the tundra. That explains why I only 60 on T6.

You need to stop daydreaming about claiming a spot like that on immortal. It's just very unlikely you will get it and I'm not sure if it's that good even. Look, you have very strong connected spots by your capital! Food, river, floodplains - strawberry fields, remember?

Got it. Thanks.

Next tech?

I really want to go Wheel -> Pottery.
Chopping is not urgent, and my worker can farm a FP if he gets bored after the corn. I don't feel the need to mine a hill immediately. Having said that, I do want to know if I've got copper, so a case can be made for Mining->BW first.
Edit: and with all that food, Slavery is kind of a priority, I guess.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler More tech talk :

Unless I want to forward settle the Pig (the spot 1SW of the pig looks ok?), AH doesn't seem to be a priority right now.

 

[sampsa]

tech choices

Spoiler :

In general, go BW before pottery if you have some chops available. EXP is great for chops, starting with mining is great for chops. And it's not only chops, it's also about whips. With that amount of food you can 3-pop whip one early settler.

What you really really want is to found more cities asap, because the land is great. I think wheel-pottery before BW would be a big mistake. You are correct that the mine is not important.

That explains why I only 60 on T6.

That is not possible. You have generated 63 without the met AI bonus already.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Blast. 70, not 60. *facepalm*

Edit: And I just realised that I start with mining. Ok, I'm going to go and wake up properly before I embarrass myself any further.

 

[sampsa]

I just realised that I start with mining.

What I tend to do is to Alt+S and set a note "EXP/CRE" and "mining-hunting" especially for the early game, because we are stupid and just forget things.

 

[sampsa]

Spoiler :

You should direct towards one civ. From the ones you've met so far I think Joao is the obvious choice. I tend to not choose the first victim, rather someone who likes to trade, is not very close and who is easy to please (fav civics!). https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Ok. Five more turns done. Ag finished, BW started.

Spoiler More City Talk :

I'm not really very happy with that map, but here's my thinking:

fwd: pig in first ring (although needs AH before I would like it), gold and ivory in 2nd ring. But I expect Peter to settle near it and maybe take my gold off me. Probably not worth even trying for.

a & b: City (a) looks good, (b) is suspect. I can do away with both of them and instead settle 1E of a. A much stronger city, I think, but then (a) will have to move west, probably north of the river.

3: The only way to work the cows. If that's important. However, it does share 5 good cottage tiles with the capital. That alone makes it worthwhile to my thinking. Needs AH, but less urgently than the pig city.

yuk: The name says it all. If I don't bother with the (fwd) position, I'd probably move this city 1N, but it still looks weak to me. No food, would have to rely on farmed grassland.

Obviously, I need some help with this.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler :

You should direct towards one civ. From the ones you've met so far I think Joao is the obvious choice. I tend to not choose the first victim, rather someone who likes to trade, is not very close and who is easy to please (fav civics!). https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/

Thanks for that link. I'll check it out.
My first diplomatic red flag was when Izzy approached me from the north. I suspect she's off to the west somewhere, and that I'm going to be her only direct neighbour. I guess that means that my religion is going to be chosen for me. She scares me.

 

[sampsa]

city talk

Spoiler :

I'd forget 'fwd'. "Peter" with a grand moustache is likely to settle pig/stone/gold/oasis before you can do anything. The city is far, unconnected and demanding on worker turns. You have very strong connected spots that have 31-tiles ready to be worked. Get cities to work them asap, they are good even with zero worker turns.

'a' is a good spot, 'b' is a good spot, '3' is decent at AH, 'yuk' (or rather 1N of it) is decent as there is a farmed fp for food. River plains ivory is not a horrible tile at all.

So clearly the most interesting spots are in the N/NW where you should scout next.

My first diplomatic red flag was when Izzy approached me from the north. I suspect she's off to the west somewhere, and that I'm going to be her only direct neighbour. I guess that means that my religion is going to be chosen for me. She scares me.

It's very good if you are already connected via river to her as that can mean religion spread pre-writing. She's a nice neighbor once you get her religion.

edit: a possible idea is to direct on her immediately as she will be friendly in the BCs barring an unexpected change in the religious situation (like if she spreads budd to you and then switches to juda).

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Generally, I've always thought that a farmed flood plains (4, 0, 1) isn't too much worse than a grass cow (4, 2, 0). I do hate losing the cottage by farming the FP, though. Still, for food-poor sites, it strikes me as a viable source.

Also, yep. That's where the scout is headed next.

 

[sampsa]

Yeah but the capital has 5 fps and 6 grass rivers. It's not like giving one of them to another city changes much. And the more food you have the better those plains river cottages become.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Spoiler T015 :

Ooooh... interesting!

So, stone would be nice, but in the desert? really? With dry rice?
Also, further exploration in this area will be hampered by the stupid bear that's running around in the fog there.

I think I'll send my warrior to fogbust east/southeast and build another warrior that will fogbust my first city site while I build a settler.

Worker is farming the corn (obviously). After that I want to send him to farm the FP SE of the city. It will waste a turn getting there, but I think that's the next best improvement while waiting for BW.

 

[Gunboat Diplomat]

Also switching the worked tile in the city so that growth and second worker happen on the same turn. Which also happens to shave a turn off BW.

brain glitch. please ignore.

 

[sampsa]

T15 comments

Spoiler :

Stone: maybe if you can get it with say 4th city. Will be hard to get Mids anyway. I didn't waste a turn moving to farm that particular fp, I just picked an adjacent fp.

But what have you worked in the capital? 12 every turn until now I guess. Not sure if that's good. In general, always work the best tiles! Also, at least for me whipping the 1st settler is natural with these tiles and tech path, so not maximizing food is bad. With 2 city center you generally get enough warriors out in time.

Also switching the worked tile in the city so that growth and second worker happen on the same turn. Which also happens to shave a turn off BW.

By 2nd worker I assume you mean second warrior, but that doesn't add up. Of course you will work the improved tile from now on. You'll grow in 4 and will make 8 in that time, it doesn't add up.