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Immortal Sitting Bull

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by vranasm, Sep 23, 2011.

  1. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    Inspired by some other thread I was thinking about playing SB Immortal game with the aim of using protective longbows in BC's.

    I regenerated a few times (with the cheap intent of finding gems/gold start), but found this interesting one



    I am thinking about settling on the wine and teching AH with Pottery probably next.
     
  2. mutax2003

    mutax2003 Rider of China, 4-3-3

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    How about protective xbow and treb conquest from bulbing machinery and engineering, as detailed in a recent deity game posting?

    Mutax2003
     
  3. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    NA starts with fishing. That shuts down the bulb path. Usually you can just go IW/MC/Math/alpha/aesthetics and suddenly you can bulb machinery ---> tech construction -----> engineering. Even without philo most civs can pull that ~500 BC with tech trades (slower with fewer civs on continent, but they'll tech slower too). However, fishing makes it too slow. Now you get sailing, calendar, and compass required as pre-reqs before bulbing machinery and simply can NOT bulb engineering (you'll bulb optics/astro IIRC).

    Longbows are overrated. If you're going bows in BC, make it crossbows. Crossbows at least get a bonus against most serious candidates for pre-medieval defenses. It's going to be hard to bulb machinery though. You'd need to block philo/paper bulbs and bulb/research calendar/compass in addition to the usual alpha/math/iw/metal casting. GS won't bulb engineering before astro once you have fishing. Tall order, but still better than this longbow crap IMO. Even with drill IV a longbow will struggle against say hill swords or axes and costs way more. If you want to involve siege too then why not just run CR swords against probable opposition longbows? On top of that you STILL need anti-mounted. That's a lot to trade away for some first strikes. At least with xbow you nullify the utility of all significant non-archery defenders, and that's usually a worthwhile bonus (longbows come up as top defenders, take damage, xbows can clear up surprisingly well pre-knights...or against opponents who lack either iron or horse).

    With such a strong bur cap and a few nearby sites to reasonably farm specs you could just go peacefully at first too. You can probably crack a good lib time on a start like this, or pick up astro quickly as needed.

    EDIT: If you're willing to cut the academy and bulb inefficiently you can get 3 GS fairly early to bulb say compass/metal casting/machinery (you'd only have to self-tech or trade calendar/alpha/math/aesthetics). SB can then still get respectably early xbows (philo can put up 3 gs before 500 BC using 2 cities; 1st guy is out in 9 turns in 1st city to run 2 GS, then as long as you get a 2nd somewhere else the same city can pop the 3rd in 25 turns. This timetable is plenty doable)

    Is that better than attempting to oracle feudalism? Probably. Benefits:

    1. Strong earlygame tech progression with every tech you need to make every early game improvement
    2. Possible fast track to astro if you sink more post-war specs
    3. Some very viable trade bait (do you consider feud viable trade bait? Compass/aesth/even calendar seem fine to me!)
    4. Better offensive unit, by a wide margin IMO
    5. No reliance on a wonder attempt that is frankly chancy at best

    Costs compared to oracle feud:

    1. 3 great people (pretty painful; you really need the subsequent war to succeed or you'll come out behind bulbing weak techs like compass and MC)
    2. Longbows are technically better all purpose defenders, though I consider this marginal
    3. Prophet points, though some might consider this a blessing

    I don't think you can afford to wait for trebs here, but a snaaty whip session with cata/xbow/spear (if against HA) should absolutely demolish warmongers who get feud slowly and cause grief even after. Drill II cover longbows hit kind of hard and the best defender code doesn't do well against it.
     
  4. Grashopa

    Grashopa Emperor

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    Second vote for SB's PRO crossbows. I destroyed a deity 9 city Russia with 3 of SBs crossbows - I think it was one of Kossin's DR games. You forgot to mention SBs UB which is freaking ridiculous. Drill 4 on an SB crossbow and you just walk around destroying anything. Attack a city full of archers? You take no damage.
     
  5. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    I'll try this one too because the start location is epic :D

    Settle on the Wine or on the warrior hill?
     
  6. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I think I will start first the game with some exploration... and then will see ;-).

    XBows has one disadvantage...they need Iron, something I missed when I tried some xbow rushes.

    I could in theory Oracle->MC and try for the forge->GE bulb machinery trick.

    That can be decided later. I could of course get beaten to Oracle at T53 as in some other tests happened and all of this would be moot point.
     
  7. VoiceOfUnreason

    VoiceOfUnreason Deity

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    Hmm - a hammer per turn plus two "free" flood plains vs a commerce per turn plus wet rice and pigs.

    My feeling is that if you move, Pottery should wait a while - PHI + Food + Library etc... says to me that Writing should be a top priority.
     
  8. bhavv

    bhavv Glorious World Dictator

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    Wet rice + pigs plus the wet corn >>> plains hill city.

    That capital is going to make a super SE farm.
     
  9. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    hmm maybe shouldn't make the settling decision so harsh, but anyway I played first 35 turns

    Wasn't sure how to proceed with reports for this game. If anyone wants to shadow or not. I decided that I will do it like normal game and so if anyone wants to shadow, beware there will be spoilers.

    After thinking a bit the situation, I as SB have fishing and Agri as starting techs, if I settle 1 NE I need for first 2 food sources only agri and it looks logical to delay AH and instead work on cottages asap to get commerce going.

    So I decided that the tech order will be TW->pottery->mining->BW to get some barb defense and for a change don't get owned by barbs.

    Teching AH x PH line is something that will be decided later.

    T10 first AI met
    Spoiler :

    pretty late if you ask me, from north east.

    T11 2nd AI met
    Spoiler :

    from south-south west.

    Pacal Inca... hmm now add Willem and MM and it will be a hell of a map.

    BW finished T 35.

    Land overview
    Spoiler :

    Spoiler :


    I don't like the positions of warriors (mine), but the south west warrior was hunted by 2 wars and archer, so I got him where he is.

    Decisions to make:
    1) switch to slavery?
    2) which city first? I am inclined to go for the spot to the west from capital
    3) how to settle the rich area with fish, corn, stone and a lot of desert
    4) how to incorporate copper into city plans?
     
  10. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Is it a good idea to work 3 cottages in Cahokia so soon? Mining/BW first seems better - mine a hill or two and get a couple of dogs out before the barbs become inconvenient.

    I would put the clam/floods down first to block Pacal and let that city do all the commerce duties while the capital spews settlers and workers off its 5 big tiles. Forget the copper (you're going offensive longbows right? :D)

    Edit: shame no early happy nearby.
     
  11. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    the idea was to work cottage from city 2.
    yeah I need those dogs badly. have to think through how to get them out, maybe some settler whip OF could come handy.

    the timing doesn't look stellar
     
  12. Keilah

    Keilah King

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    -switch to slavery if you plan to build granaries (good idea imo), and then whip a library in city #2 (possibly capital also, might prefer to chop + slowbuild there and skip the granary for now)

    -definitely settle that spot to the west of the cap, pacal may decide to settle 1n1e of the sheep so hurry up. Besides, it's awesome since you're already started with cottaging and has a river traderoute.

    -there's only one square that can be settled if you want the fish. Settle it and plan to whip a lot in that city. Ignore the stone unless there's something nice in the fog NE of there, but probably the AI will steal the spot regardless.

    -copper is meaningless to you and has no food, ignore it.
     
  13. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I played a bit further

    The capital was left in a very uncomfortable state
    Spoiler :

    and I had to decide what to do. As you can see the capital growths next turn, but warrior finishes in 2. if it was 1 and 1 I would probably not change a thing.
    I tried some MM and could delay the growth to 2T, but could not speed up the warrior any way.

    So I will switch into slavery, queue in DS, grow to size 5 and then 2 pop whip into settler for good overflow and finish the settler at size 3 with some chop

    Spoiler :


    barb warrior shouldn't enter borders yet, so the west warrior will move into my borders for a turn.

    And yet another AI met
    Spoiler :


    Here is the whip, well after whip situation
    Spoiler :

    it was 28H OF.

    My heroic fogbuster sustained attack of 2 barb warriors
    Spoiler :

    let's look at the combat log?
    Spoiler :

    4.4% attack odds first warrior, 20% second one. So surely nothing lucky.

    T42 the first settler comes and I queue DS
    Spoiler :


    T44 city 2 is settled
    Spoiler :

    I queue totem pole for the clams, work cottages from capital

    The average number of cities start to be close to 3... the barb pressure will surely start soon.

    T52 I meet another AI
    Spoiler :

    not much happy about this one though

    T53 and Priesthood is finished.
    Spoiler :


    I have 5 forests prechopped, but am a bit on crossroad. Push monarchy? It's 23 turns that would mean T76 oracle->feud. Is it reasonable?

    Stonehenge was build by Maya at 2160 BC.
    I could ofc switch around and push towards Oracle->MC instead.

    I should probably build settler in capital now and claim some more land first though.

    Not much changed land overview
    Spoiler :


    Decision? Obviously tech and to lesser extend build queue in capital!
     
  14. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    I 've played somewhat further but got to the point you're at a lot differently. Having said that I'm playing it straight, no fancy longbow plans :D

    - Mined all 3 capital hills before any cottages
    - Built 2 dogs very early, had no barb issues at all due to snakyish land
    - Did not whip capital at all (well till around T80 or something) - it has 5 super tiles (got AH for the pig so I know where horses are :))
    - City 2 same place as you but:
    ---- Forget totem, so no need for early mysticism
    ---- Granary chopped, then library which I whipped eventually
    ---- Not going to work the clam for a while, so no WB
    ---- The first cottages built were the 3 in a vertical line that could share with Cahokia

    Another thing that's worthwhile is road into to pacal's network as soon as writing is done. In your game if you're skipping writing you'll have to watch for pacal getting it. Also I think the southern dog would be better up north where he stands a chance of some action.
     
  15. Keilah

    Keilah King

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    played a bit, went wheel -> pottery -> mining -> bw -> writing

    Built 1 worker and 2 settlers, used a lot of whipping while working cottages + food tiles (probably would have been far superior to go worker, settler, worker, worker, settler and bust out a lot more chops)

    Built 1 of my cities south of the pigs on the coast, to share the rice with the capital (else soooooooooo much food goes to waste)

    got 2 great scientists, bulbed math, built academy in the cap

    construction next, then myst -> hunting -> archery (also did a bunch of trades asap)

    killed pacal with catapult/dog/archer after he built me a bunch of wonders :D

    note: Holkan is actually good against drill archers, remember not to promote them ALL on the drill line


    BTW one nice thing about using archers as stack units is that they're more numerous, so you can make your army 75% catapults (in hammers) but still have 50% units that can mop up. I hate when all his units are near-dead but i only have a handful of powerful units, too few to clean up.
     
  16. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    Ok another set of the game.

    I had to decide which way to go. I think I claimed at the start that i will try to force a strategy into the map (you shouldn't do it ever!) and want to try for soon BC's Longbows and some trolling with them.
    So I ditch the idea with Oracling MC away and will hold on Monarchy.
    If I lose due to this Oracle race, so be it, I will call it a quit.

    First I will do the trick we all know that doesn't work, but so many people do it anyway...
    Let's invest 1T of hammers into Oracle:
    Spoiler :

    If I get late oracle we can then claim it was due to the trick we know doesn't work.

    Checked Judaism... went 2720BC...not good news

    Judaism spread
    Spoiler :

    no switch.

    And 1240 BC the game is lost :-(

    Spoiler :


    It was pretty close... 3 turns and I would pop Oracle->Feudalism. Bah.

    Bottleneck was commerce this time, as predicted without gold/gems the strategy is pretty risky. I will try another time with SB, but will wait until I roll good map with gold/gems.
     
  17. Keilah

    Keilah King

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    yo dude try again but this time failbuild stonehenge with mysticism to speed up monarchy. No gems needed.

    edit: maybe :)
     
  18. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    I was thinking about staying only at 2 cities... but not in mood right now.
     
  19. Kid R

    Kid R Emperor

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    Oracle 1 hammer :lol: The longbow idea on this map isn't actually that bad I think - Pacal becomes a monster later on so taking him out reasonably early like Keilah did might have been better. I rage quit when he beat me to both the great library and then liberalism by 2 turns each :mad:

    It's a shame there's no reasonable way to bulb monarchy - bull could probably get the GP in time if there was.
     
  20. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    Rolled today with map finder few maps with gold/gems (well got only gold starts, but anyway).

    Out of 15 maps I selected 3 "best ones". Which one you think would be best to play for BC longbows?

    Map 1


    Map 2


    Map 3


    Somehow i see map 3 as best... since grass riverside cows are so strong tile together with wet corn, but would mean I have to tech AH...
     

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