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Immortal Students, Re-examination, the IIIrd !

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Takesitez, Sep 2, 2016.

  1. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

    Joined:
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    Ok, so last game I experimented with a mapscript and an all warmonger game, but Rainforest turned out to debilitate the AI too much, so it really wasn't much of a challenge.

    I've rolled a new map, which I slightly tweaked (upgraded a couple starting positions), and I hope this one will provide a fun romp for the Immortal players and some serious headaches for Deity attempts.

    Of course everyone is free to play along on any speed/difficulty they feel comfortable with, but the optimal (imho) settings for this map are No huts No events, Normal, Immortal for the lazy, and Deity for the masochistic :D

    Have fun !

    Here is the leader:

    Spoiler :


    Continuing the tradition of strong leaders, this guy is always fun to play as.

    and here we have the start :

    Spoiler :


    A tempting start yet again, here's hoping the map makes up for this present :)

    I've added a worldbuilder save. To play, simply download the save into your BTS/Saves/WorldBuilder folder, choose Play a Scenario, choose your speed and difficulty level, and enjoy !
    Don't forget to add the appropriate Barbarian starting techs for your difficulty level in the worldbuilder:

    Spoiler barb instructions :
    The handicap in the wb save has been deleted, so the AI races will start with the appropriate techs and units for your difficulty level. Barbarians should be tweaked as below:
    For players on Monarch or above, you should add archery as a tech for the barbarians (if you don't, the AI will capture their cities very early). This cannot be done in the WB save file and must be done in WorldBuilder as follows:
    Spoiler :

    Zoom in all the way so you can't see the rest of the map.
    Use the CTRL-W key (or the menu) to enter the WorldBuilder. Avoid looking at the mini-map in the lower right corner.
    By default you're in "player" mode (look in the box in the upper right; the icon that looks like a person should be selected). You'll get a drop down menu labelled with your leader's name. Barbarians are at the bottom, so cover the rest of the list with your hand if you don't want to see who else is on the map. Select "Barbarians".
    Select the "Technologies" tab in the box on the left.
    Find Archery (the arrow head icon; 8th row, 3rd column from the right) and click it.
    Exit the WorldBuilder.
    Zoom out again after the map fades, and start playing.



    PS: if anyone can tell me how to manage the warrior starting position whilst also deleting the beingunit line in the save to enable all difficulties, it would be much appreciated.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    DeGaulle + stone is legit.
     
  3. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    Seriously. Unless the nearby land is seriously food poor, I don't see myself doing anything other than building the Pyramids for an early representation SE.
     
  4. Imploding

    Imploding Warlord

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    Great! I will probably have a go at this during the weekend :)

    I must say these public made maps, who have some kind of balance in them is great challenges and fun to play! A great thing for the civ 4 community. IMO the mapmaking in civ 4 needs just a little "human" tuch to create a steady balanced game experience. A touch i feel NC and Immortal university add! So great job guys!
     
  5. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

    Joined:
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    I thought the same about Pyramids, and hope to find some more forests than the screenshot shows to chop them out.

    To 1720BC:

    Spoiler :
    After some thought, I decided to indeed build what wonders I could, especially Pyramids for Representation. But I also want to make my capital into a cottage Bureaucracy monster and run the specialists in my second city (Pigs + the Corn from the capital)...let's see how it works out. I should be able to get five good cities and a capital with a very high happy cap for working many cottages. Enough for a boring Cuirassiers breakout (if somebody trades me Horses that is).

    Meet Sitting Bull and Monty. They are such a lovely couple together!

    So in 2240BC down comes the Great Wall.

    And in 1720BC up go the Pyramids.

    2 cities and a Settler about to settle.
     
  6. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    Imm to 640 AD:
    Spoiler :
    This start was tasty. Ind leader with wet corn, fp, and stone on a river city that begs to be a bureau all star. Plenty of room to expand while leaving the sea of jungle to SB. I grabbed the Great Wall and Pyramids without breaking a sweat and REX'd to 8 cities. I didn't worry too much about exploding out like this since I knew once I built libraries and later revolted to Caste System, the slider would hardly be relevant. I did have to micro a bit to avoid strike with the final city though, so maybe I stretched things a little too thin.

    The Hanging Gardens were built iafal while I was about 75% through my aqueduct in Paris. Whoever is on the other continent seems to be doing alright then. Not sure if any particular civ favors that wonder, but I'm guessing there's a wonder spammer (HC maybe?). I wanted the gardens for the pop and health, but also the extra GE points in the capitol. Unfortunately I ended up with two GSpies as my first two GP :vomit: both got settled. Third GP was a scientist from another city that built an academy just before revolting to bureau.

    SB and Monty had one war, but mostly it's been a buddhist lovefest with very little tech trading (I decided to finally tech alpha ~300AD :lol: I am currently teching Education and University of Sankore is nearly finished in the capitol. Orleans (pig/elephants/copper) is mass spreading buddhism and things are looking good for a pre 1000AD Oxford.

    In a perfect world, I'd lib Chemistry or even better Steel, but I hesitate since I don't know what the other civs tech is looking like. ~800ad is usually safe for lib in my experience, which I can easily get with my current tech rate, but what to take? Nationalism seems bad since I don't have marble for Taj or Horses for Military Tradition. Gunpowder and self tech to steel for musketeers/cannons? Go for astronomy perhaps?

    Regardless of what I take with lib, I think the long term plan is to take SB and possibly Monty's land and then win the space race. It's been a while since I've gone deep down the tech tree, and I'm not sure I fancy a cross continental war.
     
  7. Mizar

    Mizar IM

    Joined:
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    @Takesitez
    Spoiler :

    Just delete the beginunit - endunit blocks for the AI controlled teams, leave the 2 human player's units.
    Starting position for the teams are set via x/y coordinates in every team block in the WB file.
    Also you need to delete all "Handicap=". lines
     
  8. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

    Joined:
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    @Mizar
    Spoiler :
    Thanks, I've tended to try and blind myself as much as possible on my WB saves and used the 'replace all' function. Since this type of rollup required me to know the AI teams anyway, I'll be sure to default to this editing methodology in future maps :) ... and I did delete handicaps.


    @ everyone else:

    I hope the true Deity players (like Georgj :) , I needn't mention Izuul et al.) are tackling this at their appropriate difficulty level. I'd like to think that there are alot of ways that you can go wrong even as a confident Immortal player on this map, and I'd love to see people take this on at the highest difficulty they usually play. Specifically to me Deity writeups here would teach me ALOT, but the map is such that detailed Immortal writeups would help even more people, or so I hope.

    I haven't seen an opening move consideration for instance; I can see 3 myself; 1 of which I would probably eliminate because of what the fog shows us.
     
  9. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    1N, 1NW, and 1W seem to me the only good alternatives to SiP, 1W being the best of the three and 1N the worst. I guess I didn't look at it too close in the actual game, because now I see that 1NW seems to be a lot better in the opening screenie. If I had it to do over (not using known information, just the opening screenie) I would probably move the warrior 1E and settle 1W unless I saw something great.
     
  10. Mizar

    Mizar IM

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    From your warrior position I woud've moved 1SW on the hill to check if anything (small hope) supports founding on the PH SWSW from settler (I did something different, had a different warrior position and saw additional tiles).
    The spots I'd mainly consider are 1W and 1NW for a good Bur. capital.

    Briefly flirted with founding on stone but too many disadvantages, loose river, FP, river grassland and area looks very brown.
     
  11. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    1NW for strong Bureau cap or settle on stone for more hammers + forests in BFC and a faster worker. 1NW is safer for long-term commerce, but settling on stone would be better for an attempt at the Mids or even the GW. It would also provide faster expansion at the cost of commerce down the road. You could still get 5 cottages though, which isn't bad, and there's always the potential to move the capitol later.

    On deity you do have to consider the possibility of getting boxed in if you don't pump out a couple of early settlers.

    I would move my warrior 1E to see what's past the stone. That could definitely influence my settling decision.
     
  12. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    @MeowZeDung:

    Spoiler :
    8 cities? So you did settle in the jungle...I try to avoid that but here Sitting Bull becomes massive if you don't. Good move.

    Regarding Liberalism, using it on Gunpowder would be pretty poor - you would actually save beakers by teching it the usual way instead of taking it with Liberalism! You should be able to get Chemistry with it, Cannons + Muskets + Knights seems the best way to get Sitting Bull's cities. Did you get to Philosophy first?



    Deity, to 1AD:

    Spoiler :
    After building Pyramids and Great Wall I re-evaluated the situation. Sitting Bull would be very big (he has 15 cities at 1AD) unless I settled useless jungle cities instead of more productive cities in the north. I would rather attack him sooner than later. I decided that the perfect balance between making use of Representation research and attacking earlier would be an Engineering bulb...

    Only 5 cities total settled.

    Cottaged the capital while getting a Great Engineer from the Pyramids. Yay!

    The Engineer built the Great Library in the Pig + Corn city below the capital. I thought it was right because the city had more food for mass specialists + National Epic but since it might be a long time to Code of Laws building it in the cap for additional beakers would have been better.

    First Great Scientist made Academy in capital, second arrived just now to bulb Machinery. Third Great Person from the cap will either bulb Engineering (Scientist), trigger a Golden Age (Spy) or build something (Engineer).

    Monty finally pulled the trigger and attacked Sitting Bull, so far without any success.

    None of the two clowns in the south has Alphabet so far. How long do I have to wait to get it in trade...? Already got all the other prerequisites for the Machinery bulb.

    I have put a lot of hammers into Parthenon, Statue of Zeus (could have completed that three times already) and Collossus in multiple cities for failgold. Can someone on the other continent please build one of those already? It's 1AD!

    Diplo is interesting. Monty took Theology with Oracle and switched to Christianity. Then he built the Apostolic Palace and Sitting Bull became Christian as well (just like me) and won the election. But they still hate each other so Monty can't get to me since Sitting Bull is in the way. Makes me a lot more relaxed...
     
  13. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    @georgjorge:
    Spoiler :
    I settled the fp/fish site SW of the capitol that had several hills and grasslands covered in jungle, but other than that no jungle cities. One or two of my cities are pretty poor pre guilds/chem/bio without representation boosting specialists. Only settled that many because of getting the mids. Not sure it was the best move though, like I said in my first write up.


    To 1220AD:
    Spoiler :
    Ok, so my game has been good. . .ish. A bit of a comedy of errors sometimes, but lots of success as well.

    First, my Oxford and lib dates were later than I anticipated. 1040 Oxford and ~1100 lib. I delayed lib a bit after a trade with monty for machinery to tech compass -> optics and take astro. I figured free artists from salons would be a great tech boost with rep and the +25% beakers would move me right along toward a space victory. Turns out Calendar is a pre requisite for Astro though :yuck: Normally by this date it would be a foregone conclusion that I had calendar, but SB and Monty make for terrible trading partners. I wasn't that happy when the free tech screen popped up and I realized why Astro wasn't on there :cringe: I took printing press as a result.

    Second, SB capped Monty :yuck: This made me rethink my original plan to take a big chunk of SB's land for my space production. I wasn't sure musketeers/cannons would be good enough to deal with the stacks of a bazillion units each of them would have when I declare. Instead I figured I would just remain on good terms with them and trust that they hate the other continent. Space with only 8 cities seems rough though. Maybe smacking the other continent around is the answer after all. . . oh wait. . .

    Third, the mapmaker is cruel. Two caravels were sent from opposite sides of the continent as soon as I could whip them and send them on their way. I quickly met Churchill, Asoka, and Shaka. One had 18 cities and had capped the other two. I'll give you three guesses who the master was, and the first two guesses don't count :lol: Hannibal is holding his own pretty well for now.

    So, with all of this info I am kind of in a pickle. I'm torn between space or using my tech advantage to war against SB/Monty. In order to deal with both of their unit spams I think I'd have to be pretty far ahead in terms of troop superiority. I don't have horse and haven't found a trade for it yet (maybe after astro), and I'm not sure cavalry would be enough even if I did. Maybe arty/infantry? Tanks even? SB has a lot of good land, and even his backwards ways will probably outpace me after contact with the other continent if I delay too long.

    Alternatively, I've taken a bit of a gamble, partly for the lulz. I was building Angkor Wat for the fail gold, but decided to go ahead and build it to boost priests in one of my not so productive fishing cities that is building Moai for prophet GPP and hammers. I founded Confu and figured if I could pop a Great Prophet for the shrine, I have plenty of cities on this continent alone to spread confu and make Wall Street worth while in a space game. The capitol had a ~40% chance to pop a prophet but I got an engineer instead (he will rush wall street if I get a prophet next, SoL if I don't). The fishing city will have moai soon and should have roughly the same chance at a prophet (it ran scientists under CS earlier, diminishing my chances at a prophet now :( )

    I beelined Economics after my Lib fiasco and the GM is on his way to Monty's capitol for trade mission gold. Astro will be in in a couple of turns, significantly boosting the economy. Coastal cities will build harbors and custom houses, and all cities will build salons. Salons and their artists + rep + international trade + either SoL or Wall Street in the confu holy city should all help get me deep into the tech tree for either war with SB, space, or both.

    Edit: While I'm thinking about this game, it occurs to me that I could just take out Hannibal and build the forbidden palace on the other continent. That would give me enough land and cities for a good space tech and production rate, but I fear it increases my chances of war with Shaka way too much. Thoughts?
     
  14. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

    Joined:
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    Deity, to 700AD:

    Spoiler :
    I finally cashed in on all my failgold and just made it to Engineering. A Great Spy was born and triggered a Golden Age, allowing me to switch temporarily to Police State and Slavery before going back to Caste + Representation again.

    Those heros set out to pay Sitting Bull a visit. Late - but maybe not too late...

    Spoiler :



    (Yes, not nearly enough Trebs, but it was enough for the first city and more were already on the way)


    So far, they have taken four cities off him, bringing us almost to parity there. Monty is still trading blows with Sitting Bull as well - he tried to use the Apostolic Palace to end it but Sitting Bull would have none of it, switching back to Christianity just in time to prevent peace :confused:

    On one hand, I'm teching far too slowly. On the other hand, the two clowns on my continent aren't the fastest techers either, and if I can keep up with them and take their cities I should have a production advantage over the other AIs.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. MeowZeDung

    MeowZeDung Prince

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    1820AD:
    Spoiler :
    Ragequit after Shaka sniped a northern coastal city with transports filled with cavalry. I wasn't even worried about him because he was annoyed with SB and pleased with me. Stupid AI. I was amassing arty/infantry/MG/Anti-tank for war with SB, and Industrialism was just a few turns away for tanks and hopefully aluminum. My forces were definitely powerful enough to deal with Shaka's stack, but probably not until he sniped another city, which would likely be my shrine/wall st/mining inc city, and I just don't want to deal with recapturing my cities and then being even more behind before declaring on SB/Monty.

    This is also probably due to some other frustrations this game. I think I played decent for my current skill level, which is a 50-70% win rate on IMM. I'm finding that most of the time my judgement is the issue, not my execution. For instance, I don't go to war when I should because I don't think my chances are good enough when in reality it's my best window of opportunity. In hindsight, I probably should have gone all in on an elepult or mace/treb/elephant war on SB much earlier. With no horse this is even more true since cuirs or cavs wouldn't be an option.

    I thought I could hold my own deep into the tech tree given a decent oxford date, my SE setup with the mids, and a decent shot at a shrine or SoL. I ended up popping a GProphet at ~40% odds and building the confu shrine and engineer rushing wall st, which was definitely sweet. I think it made me overconfident in my teching though. I popped an engineer next and chose to settle him for all the rep beakers instead of using him for 800 hammers into SoL, which I was already building at a steady clip with IND/copper. Well, Hannibal beat me to it by 2 turns after I chose not to whip it :mad: and he also beat me to Physics by 3 turns. 8 cities is just not enough for the late game outside of culture/UN on this difficulty I guess.

    tl;dr I made some bad judgement calls throughout the game, but executed pretty well for my current skill level (lib fiasco aside).
     
  16. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

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    Got extremely lucky.

    To 175 BC:
    Spoiler :

    Went straight GW (2520 BC) and Pyramids (1600BC). Then teched Aesthetics, and frigging Sitting bull gets Alpha just as I get it. I trade, then pick up Iron Working and Monotheism from Monty, who declared war on Sitting Bull.
    I pick up an Engineer, which builds the Great Library in Paris (450BC), I'm running scientists from here whilst getting the Epic up and teching Metalcasting, but my next person is ANOTHER Engineer, which bulbs Machinery 175BC.

    As you can see, I could now trade for Math with Monty and hit the floor running towards Cataphant + Xbbows on my way to Engineering.

    On top of all that, Lyons spawned a Gem mine :lol:

    I'm not sure if trading metalcasting here is worth it, looking for advice on that end, since putting the AI's on the road to higher warfare techs seems bad. It shaves 4 turns of my research plan. What do you all think ?



     
  17. soundjata

    soundjata Be like water

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    ^ research math for one turn and trade literature to Monty for it.
     
  18. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    @Takesitez:

    Spoiler :
    Good game so far! Lucky with the Engineers, and Paris looks like an awesome research city. In this situation, I always have problems deciding between Representation and Police State (in my game I even rushed Notre Dame with my second Engineer so I could run Police State). I also think early Elephants and then Trebs are the way to go here since Sitting Bull will become too big otherwise.

    I would always trade Metal Casting away in your situation. First, it's not Monty you want to attack first. Second, in medieval war it's all about having good offensive siege and good stack defense. Crossbows and Trebs won't help him defend against your stack. Third, Monty is awful at teching, especially when he's in a prolonged war.
     
  19. Takesitez

    Takesitez Chieftain

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    To 1010 AD:

    Spoiler :
    So traded Literature for Math, chop chop chop, and opened up on Sitting Bull 450AD with a puny stack, but with the whipping machine online.
    I decided to stay in Rep over police state, this is gonna be a long slog, and if I want to keep up with the other continent (I did make the map after all), I need to get to Oxford ASAP, whilst both taking out Monty and SB.

    War was a bit slow, but I never really stopped for healing, the followup trebs to the initial cats helped alot, and the generals I got were settled in Orleans whilst I built the Heroic Epic there. I could probably get a better HE spot later on, but I want my CRII trebs now rather than in hundreds of years :p

    I also finally got an academy in the capital, and decided to build Notre Dame,to combat war weariness whilst in Rep (Monty built the Statue of Zeus).

    I'm hoping to hit a scientist next turn to put a bulb in Education, Lib might be a tough stretch, but maybe we'll get there. It's only immortal after all. I think I'll try for it.

    at 1010 AD, Sitting Bull has had enough:



    Thanks for the techs chump, I'll talk to you later, I've got bigger fish to fry !

    This is the north of the empire :



    With the capital that was at happy cap just before the peace treaty, damn war weariness !



    And the Heroic Epic city, very Spartan:



    And this is the south:



    There's another stack of trebs underway btw. Note Monty's SOD on the hill next to Mound City, that's right, I piggybacked off him :cool: Mound City seems like a good place to build the Forbidden Palace.

    Bad news btw:



    Monty teched straight to Engineering, so we are going to be at parity almost for our war !



    Teotihuacan has the Statue of Zeus and the Temple of Solomon, and Tenochtitlan has the Parthenon. Both are prime targets. However, I 'm thinking I will first follow Monty's SOD to his next target, then eradicate his stack when he takes the next city. Then Probably try to head straight for Mesa Verde and Teotihuacan, whilst building a second smaller stack to take the cities up north.
    Thoughts ?
     
  20. georgjorge

    georgjorge Deity Wannabe

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    @Takesitez:

    Spoiler :
    Well done on the war, it seems to have taken a long time but Sitting Bull with 10 cities is a lot to slog through.

    Not sure I would have made peace with Sitting Bull without capitulation here. The reason is that now he might cap to Monty right away, and you won't get anything out of it except a lot of war weariness when you attack Monty. The plan to attack his stack at your terms is a good one, but if he caps right now it may not happen so easily.

    I can see wanting to put the Great Library in your main research city, but the National Epic seems wasted here since you are running no specialists at all here (as you want to work cottages) and the wonders you built don't give you that much. The city below with Pigs and Corn might have been better suited to run a lot of specialists under Representation and get you more Great People.
     

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