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Immortal University 110 - Montezuma

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by NihilZero, Jun 16, 2014.

  1. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    350BC:
    Spoiler :
    Predictably, I've got off to a very lacklustre start.

    I opted to sit on the fence and settle in place, hoping that one day the strong food in the capital would let me catch up for what was clearly going to be a slow start.

    Worker first. Tech path was AH -> Wheel (start settler at pop 3) -> Fishing -> Mining -> BW.

    I got some scary news early:
    Spoiler :


    Yup, 2240BC WHEOOHRN. I was impressed. Looked like I was to be put out of my misery even sooner than anticipated.

    However, even more amazingly:

    Spoiler :


    The Viking stack walked right past me! Incredible!

    At this point I had teched Masonry for that stone and the 'mids. A very questionable strategy here, but no other particularly great plan presented itself. I could have Oracled HBR, but only Ragnar was close and his land didn't look very valuable considering the trouble I'd have to go to to wrest it from him. Furthermore, taking out Ragnar would only have brought me closer to Toku, so the returns on such a scheme did not look promising.

    I did get the 'mids in 975BC. We'll see how it plays out.

    While I had been minding my own business:

    Spoiler :


    I don't think I've ever seen a warmonger walk right past me at cautious to DoW a distant enemy.

    Here's my dismal little empire at 350BC :( :

    Spoiler :


    Pretty terrible, but I'm hoping to start growing my cities soon.
     
  2. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

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    If the barbs don't have archery the AI will capture barb cities too fast. Not to mention everything being far easier because you're only fighting warriors...
     
  3. Ironlungs76

    Ironlungs76 Chieftain

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    Fun map, cheers.

    1660AD Domination on IMM (same turn as Conquest too, oh well!).

    Despite the less than appealing slow opening there was
    Spoiler :
    sufficient room to expand to 8 cities and, thanks to some rather nifty diplo if I may say so, both Raggy and Toku were my bribing buddies early on.

    Other than a weak Pericles DoW it was plain sailing and a Lib Cuir > Cav rush won the continent fairly quickly. Hatchet and Willem were way behind by the time I sailed over there and took only a few turns to Cap each of them.


    Thanks for the map!
     
  4. dutchfire

    dutchfire Deity Retired Moderator

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    Spoiler :
    Called it!
     
  5. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

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    NihilZero:

    Spoiler :
    Five cities with goodfood is plenty for a rep scientist/bulb strategy. So that's not really a dismal start at all. With AIs already at war it should make for a good cuir/cavalry win date.
     
  6. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    Oo, thought you guys could sneak this in here without me knowing :p I will have to play this map after my run through the starcraft campaigns :p

    Monty with a coastal start yuck. I imagine diplo will be ODD in this game its like games with ghandi except backwards, awful peaceweights and what not, at least you get a bonus with the ones who actually declare war alot.. sort of making monty a diplo master.. lol

    I may go fishing, but only if that fp is by himself. Capital has no rivers etc, need to get that seafood and inland lake online before you get out your 3rd/4th cities for sure, and cottaged floodplains are awful for production.

    MAN that is an ugly start.. looks like fishing->GLH when you look at the little of bit of land to the west. ill see later :p
     
  7. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    @ Ironlungs - as first man to post a win, I salute you. This map, while very winnable, is by no means a sure thing. ;)

    @ Megalurker
    Spoiler :
    Things sort of went to plan for me and the strategy did work, up to a point, but I seem to have run into some trouble now...


    @ Blunderwonder - the human player gets none of the peaceweight or warmonger respect diplo factors. Kind of a good thing, when you think about it.

    For a major spoiler about the start position:
    Spoiler :
    In retrospect, I think 2N1E on the floodplains is probably best. You still get pigs, two hills and a pile of food. I think my tech rate would have been better overall had I just gone for the FP cottage capital.


    Regarding my game: things have taken a turn for the worse and I may be screwed. I'll know in a few turns whether I am to live or die...:run:
     
  8. shpeka

    shpeka Warlord

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2009
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    184
    Funky game as all my IUs so far :crazyeye:

    Up to 1000 AD
    Spoiler :

    SIP. Went Fishing, Mining, BW. 6 turns of production into SH (growing on Pigs, after pop on FP). Workboat, Workboat, Worker, Warrior IIRC.

    This is when my scouting revealed that Ragnar is my neighbor. After a moment of thought I decided that I it is not safe to proceed peacefully:

    1. At the moment his diplo opitons were:
    -Pericles: "We would have nothing to gain"
    -Pacal: "We would have nothing to gain"
    -Tokugawa" "We couldn't betray our friends"

    2. He might attack me even before I get to Alpha (and Alphabet might not be enough to bribe him)

    So we geared for war. No bronze was available. We had horses though. There were scarcely any barbarians in my game, so I actually gambled on teching AH instead of Archery as originally planned. And thus found the horses in capital BFC.

    Turns out I had miscalculated badly. Should have thought everything out more thoroughly: if Ragnar has no metal - he would not plan an attack; on the other hand - if he has metal HA rushing is really not advisable. Not against a unit spammer.

    Just as we finish our first horse archers Ragnar's big red fist pops up (circa BC 2200 in my game as well). Damn.

    Good thing we now have two hamlets and 4 sea resources and we can research Iron Working in reasonable time. At the time Ragnar's stack was at my borders I was able to muster 6 HA's, and archer and an axeman, so I was feeling safe to repel his initial attack even if I was not confident in the power of my counterattack. Not versus large numbers of spearmen.

    To my amazement Ragnar walked right past me and headed towards Inca lands. Incredible but well, OK, they had common borders as well. So I got a some jaguars, some more HAs and waited patiently for the horns of was. Well turns out I had to wait quite a while. Ragnar runs straight through Pacal and into Pericles. :confused:

    Works for me!

    My attack force. To the north we have 2 HAs, going to pillage Ragnar's copper.
    Spoiler :




    We reduce Ragnar to two cities when his forces return from Greece. Wow - he is still at war with Pericles but manages to bring back his whole stack of 5 axemen, 4 spearmen, and some chariots. I have to sue for peace. I even get a tech for my troubles as I already have Alphabet.

    We now have 7 cities and are growing a cottage city. 10 cottages are growing simultaneously due to favorable overlap.

    A dozen of turns later Ragnar is gearing for war again. (The war against the Greeks ended uneventfully). With TWO cities. What a lunatic!

    And his stack is formidable as well. Bigger than mine actually. He has added horse archers to his army. I whip a city walls in the border city and gather the forces there. The battles are largely in my favor but a couple of resources are pillaged, I suffer from war weariness and whip anger. So I gift a tech to Tokugawa, we share a religion and this gets him to pleased. Then I bribe him on Ragnar. Tokugawa takes one of the cities. I sign a peace treaty. Ragnar vassalizes to Pacal who has Feudalism now.

    My lands at the time the peace treaty was about to be signed.

    Spoiler :



    Then peacefully - from 660AD to 1020AD - my research has doubled and is OK-ish. Building a Palace in the cottage city will be a big problem though - due to the lack of production.

    Philosophy is bulbed even though Pericles was the first to Taoism. I have also selfteched Theocracy - as trade bait and in the hope that the AP will be on our continent. Traded it to everyone right away.

    Lands 1020AD.

    Spoiler :
    .

    Tech.

    Spoiler :



    The other continent got University of Sankore, so they might be ahead. Maybe Willem?

    In the meantime Pericles has converted to Taoism and is now gearing for war. He is annoyed with everyone and friendly with me. I am also pretty far away from him. Probably safe.

    Future plans include taking out backward Japanese with gunpowder-powered mounted units and see what happens next.

    Plan is taking out backward Tokugawa.
     
  9. shpeka

    shpeka Warlord

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    Spoiler :
    Theoretically yes, BUT this will put you right at the doorsteps of Ragnar, and with much fewer forests to chop you might be in big trouble.
     
  10. Ironlungs76

    Ironlungs76 Chieftain

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    Cheers. I forgot to mention that I somewhat bee-lined GLH and settled 2-3 junk coastal cities given how commerce barren the start is and Monty's less than stellar economic traits.

    Spoiler :
    Gifting Ragnar a city slap bang in the middle of the desert worked wonders and bribed him on Pericles and then bribed Toku on Raggy in return (to save them becoming too friendly!).

    I think I got lucky that Pacal converted everyone to Hindu early on and then Pericles (dumbly) converted to Confucianism making him a pariah.


    I would have posted some screenshots but I'm new to this forum and haven't figured out how to do it yet :blush:

    edit: oh, and I SiP also
     
  11. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    @ Shpeka:
    Spoiler :
    Nice game, looking good. What the hell is up with Ragnar in this game? Has he been imbibing the berserker's psychotropics or what? :crazyeye:

    As for the start position, I think you are going to be in the firing line on this map, regardless. You could SIP and try to settle west into the tundra to try to avert viking wrath, but let's face it, the land quality is poor and Ragnar can still come hunting for you. You'll get shared borders with him sooner or later. Having fewer forests to chop is a good point, though.


    @ Ironlungs:
    Spoiler :
    I could have bribed Toku to backstab the warring Ragnar, but I was scared that he'd vassalise him. Couldn't afford to get him onto Pacal, sadly.

    So what happens then as soon as Ragnar makes peace with Pericles? He Peacevassals to Toku. :cry:
     
  12. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    So the thing I was afraid of happened.

    1040AD:
    Spoiler :
    I kept on trucking, inching my way towards a Caste System + Representation tech explosion. These things take time, though, especially on a continent like this where the only guy without a brutal WFYABTA cap is hated by everybody.

    I unlocked the HE:
    Spoiler :

    ...and then realised that I had nowhere to put it. Seriously, there was no decent location for the HE in my empire. This was a problem as I knew I would need units, and many of them. After musing over it for a while, I came to the conclusion that I would have to put it off until I captured something decent, and in the meantime I would get by with sac altar whipping.

    Ragnar and Pericles duked it out for a few millenia without really going at it in earnest, and made peace without exchanging any territory. Then this happened:

    Spoiler :


    Balls. Toku + Ragnar? An unholy alliance if ever there was one. This game just got a lot harder.

    Still, I was hopeful as diplo was good, I had the low peaceweight Hindu lovefest guys on my side and they all had a convenient hate object in Pericles. I went about my business and got a mediocre but acceptable Lib MT.

    Spoiler :


    All was not well, though, as indicated by the small yet ferocious fist of Toku noticeable in the above screenshot. Yep, he was plotting at pleased. :eek:

    When he moved his stack I asked for a gift, which gave me ten turns, but my position was hopeless. He had forty+ units next door to me, and Ragnar was no slouch either. There was no way I could survive a two-pronged rogering from these swine.

    So I counted down the ten turns, crossed my fingers and pinned my hopes on two very slender possibilities - 1) that Toku might drop the WHEEOOHRN or switch to a different target (namely Pericles, his worst enemy); or 2) that if I saved enough gold Toku might ask for tribute instead of attacking me outright (although come to think of it, can AIs do that at pleased?).

    But it was not to be!

    Spoiler :


    There is nothing I can do against that stack.

    And that's not all, Ragnar is poised to strike from the rear as he has a city essentially inside my borders.

    Spoiler :


    So I'm dead! :lol:

    I took a few calculated risks on this map, going Pacifism and building no units, but the numbers were in my favour with all the aggressive AIs at pleased. Still, the RNG giveth and the RNG taketh away.

    Maybe if there had been an acceptable HE location things might have been different, although I'm not sure I could have mustered enough units to stop that stack even then.

    I attached my final save for anybody who wants to laugh heartily at my horrible demise. :p

     

    Attached Files:

  13. Ironlungs76

    Ironlungs76 Chieftain

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    @NihilZero:

    Ouch!

    I downloaded your save file and, as far as I can tell, the situation is not lost.

    Spoiler :
    Didn't realise you had the Mids so first thing I did was switch into Police State and whipped/upgraded a few troops with all that cash you had saved up plus 1 turn walls, if only to slow him down a turn or two. That city goes pop fairly quickly though. Toku then rolled on to Texcoco but by that time I'd whipped up a dozen or so Cuirs and hit his stack while he was bombarding. He took it next turn but I took it right back following turn.

    Meanwhile, I'd amassed a few Cuirs around your Capital and went after Ragnar (he sent his troops north for some reason leaving Bjkorgin relatively undefended. Few turns later I'd taken Nidaros also, so Ragnar's down to 3 cities.

    Once healed I ran over and retook the initial city from Toku with ease, I think I done killed all his Horse Archers!

    All in all lost 2 cities, reclaimed them both and got 2 off Ragnar. Toku will negotiate peace but I think I could roll over Ragnar and teach Toku a thing or two before hand.

    If I can figure out how to screenshot/attach a save file I'll edit in a bit - fear not valiant warrior his stack may be big but it's no match to a Cuir stack attack!


    Oh, and your cities are all a little worse for wear after all my brutality :p
     
  14. Ironlungs76

    Ironlungs76 Chieftain

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  15. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    @ Ironlungs:
    Spoiler :
    Haha! Nice!

    Most disastrous situations are salvageable, although I'm surprised stupid Ragnar didn't push on to attack Tenochtitlan, which might have been fatal.

    The good side is that, as you say, there is plenty of gold in the bank, and most of my cities have had their pop built up in anticipation of extensive cuirassier whipping.

    I just didn't have the stomach for the fight. After carefully building up one's civilisation it can be heart-rending to see it torn down. :sad:


    Regarding screenshots: best way to do it is with an image hosting service. I use tinypic these days as apparently imageshack is no longer free. Just upload to there and use the link they provide.

    Regarding saves: click the "Manage Attachments" button in the Additional Options section down at the bottom when you're posting. ;) Then you get a menu and you can browse to your save file and hit upload to upload it.
     
  16. MegaLurker

    MegaLurker King

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    You get no bonus, peaceweight and warmonger respect only apply to relations between AI leaders.
     
  17. Ironlungs76

    Ironlungs76 Chieftain

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    Many thanks, think I figured out the saves option and I'll play around with screenshots some other time :)

    1400AD and
    Spoiler :
    Raggy is dead and took 2 cities from Toku (Kagoshima and Tokyo). Despite whooping his hide he still demanded Philo for peace - grrr!


    I know what you mean about seeing all your hard work undone by a random DoW, especially when at Pleased.
     
  18. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    @ Ironlungs - not getting that save to work, it's coming up as an "invalid attachment". Sounds like you have everything in hand though. Maybe you can play all my games for me whenever things get messy? :yeah:
     
  19. blunderwonder

    blunderwonder Prince

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    are you sure about this? theres plenty of games where i started at -4 for first impression and other games where i start at +2... thats peaceweight no?
     
  20. Noble Zarkon

    Noble Zarkon Elite Quattromaster - Emperor (BTS) Super Moderator Hall of Fame Staff Supporter GOTM Staff

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    There is a script in the NC Bullpen that will quickly create all the right saves for Noble up to Deity.

    We've made it so easy no excuse for a map maker to be lazy now :)

    Sent from my Android phone
     

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