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Immortal University 111, Gilgamesh

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Hollow Bow, Mar 17, 2015.

  1. Pangaea

    Pangaea Rock N Roller

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    Unfortunate to lose some rivertiles, but I'd settle on the marble too. You still get some rivers, forests, pig, corn and gem. Great site, and a faster start. Looks like there is jungle 3N of pig, though, plus in the NW, and there is coast SW, so could be a little tricky with good 2nd and 3rd cities.
     
  2. FlyingSwan

    FlyingSwan King

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  3. Hollow Bow

    Hollow Bow Chieftain

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    I just redownloaded the 4000BC immortal, non worldbuilder save and checked in WB for barbarian starting techs, Says Agriculture, Hunting and Archery. AFAIK that is correct. Anyone else have issues ?

    map specific spoiler:

    Spoiler :
    I do not think heavy barbtroubles are to be expected because of the geopolitical layout.
     
  4. FlyingSwan

    FlyingSwan King

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    @hollowbow,if the 4000bc save you put up is correct thats fine,I just wanted to check before I continued and didnt want to look in WB cuss of spoilers.Thanks.

    EDIT.no worrys played a few more turns and the archers were out in force...
     
  5. ShiVvV

    ShiVvV Warlord

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    Summary
    Only two AI's met so far--pagan Sitting Bull (4 cities) and Hindu Saladin (3 cities).
    Oracled MC on T58 (1680BC).
    Barbs not much of an issue as we have close neighbors. Starting to see some coming in from the NE currently though.
    Details
    Spoiler :
    Tech path
    Mining(T8)>BW(T22)>AH(T31); then the Oracle techs, Myst(T36)>Med(T43)>Prst(T47)
    [I decided to tech Masonry at this point to speed up Oracle and save on capital forests (only chopped 2 forests in capital thru T60; one for settler and one for Oracle)]. Masonry(T53)
    After masonry choice was whether to tech Writing (to Oracle CoL) or Pottery for MC. I chose Pottery(T57)>Oracle-MC(T58).
    Since Giggles already has courthouses available at Priesthood, and we have gems/gold I went the MC route. Not shooting for CoL will slow down reaching CS though.
    I did consider HBR--but hard to pass on MC.

    Some map info below:
    Spoiler :
    I have 3 cities with a just-whipped settler in capital available next turn.
    Uruk (capital-settled on marble; S3)
    Improvements-gems (not connected), corn, pigs (not connected)​
    Eridu (S3)
    Improvements-gold, rice (not connected)​
    Kish (S2)
    Improvements-corn, horse pasture + road in 3 turns​
    Units--6 warriors, all but one on spawnbust duty; 3 workers.
    Plan
    1. Next city site--I think best site at this point is the ghill 1S of Sitting Bull's corn (in the north). I'll eventually snipe his corn. I don't think Sitting Bull will be our buddy this game.
    Two other possible sites are for the SE crab towards Saladin or for the northern Cu north of the sugars.
    Any advice concerning next city site guys?

    2. Maybe trying for the GS machinery bulb thing to leverage MC advantage once I get up library in capital. Currently I'd need to finish writing, tech or trade for Aesth, Math, Alpha and IW and avoid fishing.

    3. Generally I expand to 6+ cities peacefully, try to win Lib and go Cuirs, but ehhhh. I think I'd like to do some earlier war this game, maybe actually HAs and crossbow stuff. Sounds strange even as I type it.
    A couple of screenies:
    City sites and spawnbusters
    Spoiler :
    City sites and resources
    Spoiler :
    I welcome any advice, comments, suggestions or sarcastic snickering :lol:.
    Oh, the save: View attachment 391403
     
  6. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    I've played some. Just have time for a few comments.

    Spoiler :
    I don't think we'll see many glamorous blowout victories on this map. The start is nice, but the other continent is primed for an all-out Buddhist love-in with crazy teching. I played fairly conservative and stayed peaceful for a long time, deferring war until after Oxford (since I knew I'd need it for space, and that keeping up in tech was going to be a challenge) and now I'm finding out just how resilient Sitting Bull with Chichen Itza can be...:cry:

    Long story short, I expect to win, but to win ugly. SB is stalling me and that just gives Sal more time to tech towards rifles. :sad: More details later if I get the time to write it up.


    @ Shivvv:
    Spoiler :
    Similar settlements to mine, but I settled on the corn and spice pretty early. Gold I picked up later. Shame we have to settle the jungle, but there's nothing else.
     
  7. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    @ ShiVvV:

    1. Always improve the Food first. Going Mining + BW first slows down the Growth of your capital, and that shouldn't happen. Also, researching Masonry to save Forrests is a good idea, but in reality, it's bad because it slowed down your Oracle date. Try to chop-whip the Oracle next time. Wasting a few Forrests for Oracle is a good choice, if you can get something of the size of MC or Currency. Oracle is also worth wasting 2-4 population-points in that case.

    2. Don't found that filler-city, it's not worth the Settler that you need to build for it. You can think about it, once you got Corps or SP, but then you'll probably have different priorities and Corps only make sense in Space Races or Time Games, because they need so long to pay back.

    3. You got good city placement. You can give settling the good long term city 1N though. Depends on how many Workers you have at that time, and how urgently you need the resource.
     
  8. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    @ NihilZero:

    Spoiler :

    Settling the Spices was probably a mistake. I also settled aggressive Jungle cities in my earlier games, but my experience is, that improving them takes too long and takes too many resources. Better to let the AI settle and improve it, and try to go to war a little earlier.


    Staying at only few cities allows tactics like HA-rushes (preferably 3 cities then) or medieval warfare (preferably 6 cities then, or the maximum of cities that you can get without sacrificing Granaries until the point where you get Maces) .

    If you need advice for Space Races, I'd advise you to take a look at WastinTime's 700 AD Spacerace. It's Marathon, but it has a Writeup and most tactics can be transfered to Normal speed aswell. Getting the final tech-path by looking at his logs in the end will also greatly help you.
     
  9. Ironlungs76

    Ironlungs76 Chieftain

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    Just had a read through that thread, wowzers! BC Sushi and Mining Inc :eek:

    I've always really struggled with early Space victories (as this map proved) and rarely get one before 1800AD (at least on Normal speed). Other type early victories I can do, but Space, yeah, not so much.

    Thanks for the pointer to the thread, very informative :goodjob:
     
  10. ShiVvV

    ShiVvV Warlord

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    Thank you for your advice, Seraiel. I know that you are a very good player.
    1. So, are you saying tech path may have been better with AH first for the pigs? Or, Mining>AH>BW? I wanted the gems to pump up my tech rate so I could oracle something decent. I went back and forth about that digression to Masonry. I realize I could have probably had both Pottery and Writing had I teched them immediately following Priesthood; then I would've had options to oracle CoL, MC, or Math, Aesth, Alpha. I'm still wondering if maybe I should've taken HBR and gone to war very early--but against protective opponents and Sitting Bull with his super-archers...ehhhh. But all said, nabbing MC is still a pretty strong play.

    2. Which filler city? I have one marked on the western coast which is really complete crap city--the low priority one. Also I have one marked north of cap to share corn with cap and be a capital helper city. I assume you mean the coastal one?
    I will have a settler out next turn with the intention being to settle right in Sitting Bull's face--steals his corn eventually, seals him off, altho probably results in me being his worst enemy eventually...wondering your thoughts about that being my immediate next settle? Worker is roading that way now.​
    3. If I go 1N with that city I'd lose the 2 ghills located 2S of that site but I would have rice in first ring--not that big a deal with creative tho.

    I'm kinda getting bored with the Cuirs thing altho it is just so damn efficient. Wanting to do some earlier warring but isn't my comfort zone. (Had I really planned for that maybe I should've taken HBR).
     
  11. Ironlungs76

    Ironlungs76 Chieftain

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    @NihilZero

    Hi, I'm curious:

    Spoiler :
    Did you manage to trade for Iron or attack with Maces/HAs/Muskets/Rifles & Trebs? My initial plan was to Cuir attack everything post Lib but no go there.

    I got a lucky pop of Iron around 1850AD, far too late for it to have been any benefit for an earlier attack and SB (the guy who had a spare Iron on our Continent, so he had 2 out of the total 3 sources) wasn't willing to trade it with me despite shared religion and other numerous positive modifiers.

    By the time I met the other Continent the Buddhist love-in, as you say, was in full flow, with the Jewish heathen Hannibal getting beat on all sides but I was still a fair way ahead in tech. You're right though, they were tech trading like crazy for me as well. Thankfully De Gaulle went Nuke crazy and started leveling everything including his once best buddy Justinian. God bless the problems a UN Free Religion vote can create!
     
  12. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Np. I've just read about your game just now, and you've not wrote much about it. I'll comment on it though.

    Sluggish and early Spacerace don't fit together. In Spaceraces, you need to do excellent micro and that throughout the game. There's a reason, why the top-HoF-Spaceraces took more than 100 hours, it's simply because they're the games with the highest demands on the players work. Time victories can be played sluggishly, but in Spaceraces, every single :commerce: counts from the beginning to the end counts.

    Given that this is Immortal, you could have tried to Oracle something better than CoL, i. e. Currency. If you can do with fogbusting Warriors and go for early Maths (so skipping BW) , Oracle Currency can be achieved before 2000 BC with perfect micro. The capital in this game is very good and the 2nd city can have Gold, so I'm sure, Oracle Currency before 2000 BC would have been possible here. Maybe even Oracle CS at something like 16 to 1700 BC.

    If early tech-trades are non-existent, go for earlier conquest. Stay at only a few cities, and take over your neighbours. Alternative: Feed your neighbours techs (not desirable before having made sure, that one can at least get to the domination limit usually) . Going for the GL is a distraction from the tech-path of Currency -> CoL -> CS -> Paper -> Education -> Liberalism, so you might have completely delayed it until after Liberalism, to maybe get it via trade. Ofc in this game, this risks the GL, because...
    [/spoiler]
    ... of the other continent.[/spoiler]

    The GL is an awesome wonder imo, but only if one can get it cheap, or when being pushed on the Aesthetics tech-path. Other than that, beelining is the better choice imo.

    Rifles and Cavs + Spy Revolts and later Airships are an awesome and very strong tactic, that can beat almost everything. As you played a Spacerace, you would have needed to do without Spy-Revolts. Draft Rifles are supercheap and should be drafted with running Theocracy preferably, to get to 2 XP. They can deal with medieval units or Muskets without even needing siege, because of their high base-STR.

    Space Races can be really strenuous. I like them very much though, because they demand so much skill. It's always a balance of which produces the most research, growing the cities or producing units to get additional ones. I also love, that they're the games, where one can research the whole tech-tree, and I love playing with Corporations, as they're so strong. They're also the "builder-type of games" , that CIV usually doesn't allow for. Many buildings make sense in Spaceraces, that one would never consider in a Domination or Conquest type of game.

    You'll get a way better winning date, once you spend more time on your game, and really focus on every advantage you can get. I'd also inform myself on the strategies / tactics of "Hammer economy" , "Failgold through Execs" and "Infinite city sprawl" . You'll find all of those through the search function.

    GG.
     
  13. Ironlungs76

    Ironlungs76 Chieftain

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    @ShiVvV

    I also didn't go AH early and did pretty much the same as you, improve the Gems ASAP but I did go Writing/Pottery for both early cottages and CoL (despite Giggle's early cheap courthouses at Priesthood, on balance I still preferred CoL as an Oracle tech to help speed up an earlier CS).

    I expanded (against my better judgement) towards SB early (so into the Jungle, yuck) but used that city mainly to just pump out Workers/Settlers until post IW. Next up was the Gold city to the East exactly as you have done to partially block off Sal.

    I doubt this was optimal but I was trying to secure a chunk of land that wasn't dreadful (history tells me that SB expands like the plague so I was fearful of him becoming too big too soon.

    Interested to see how everyone else's games go on this map :)
     
  14. Seraiel

    Seraiel If you want anything from I please ask in German

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    Thx :)

    I ment AH as a first tech. Beeing greedy on the Gems is a typical mistake one makes when not playing with Golds / Gems regularly. One thinks "but the Gems will speed up AH" , but in the end, you could have had more Growth instead of more Commerce (Growth when working unimproved Pigs + Gems or Gems only is really very slow) , and more Growth would have allowed you to conquer your enemies earlier, because it means more production which means more units.
    Production early game is more important than Commerce. I aggree, that...
    Spoiler :

    ... going against PRO-opponents isn't very desirable


    but it's only Immortal, so a good HA-rush would have still had a chance. Getting more cities is practically impossible to beat, unless we're talking about 2 more cities and the other option are the Mids, so try to give Conqeust a higher priority.

    Regarding Oracle, I'd have probably skipped BW and Masonry, and got Alpha for that earlier. Alpha also allows Oracle Currency and can be gotten very early. It's a really hard choice against Maths though, because Oracle can be built without Masonry without problems, because it's so cheap. Oracle MC basically didn't give you anything, except Tradegood, you cannot build Forges so early, or you'll delay your attack date even more. Colossus is also a wonder, that's only good in the very fewest cases. Early Currency however allows you to trade for Gold and GPT.

    I ment the coastal one, I believe I saw that it has no real Food, cities without Food aren't good before Biology and State Property or Sushi / Cereals.

    The other city losing 2 hills is usually of minor importance, because Grassland Farms give the better production (via the whip) . I'd assume though, that the city will mostly work Specialists and run as a mid-game GP-Farm, and getting up the NE with Marble is np. Rice in the first Ring is better early, and +1 :food: is better later, so all in all I think it should at least be considered as a trade-off for less production capacity mid to late game.
     
  15. Ironlungs76

    Ironlungs76 Chieftain

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    @Seraiel

    Thanks for the feedback.

    You're right, I didn't want to go into too much of a detailed write-up but in essence after the early game expanding peacefully to 8 cities I tried to focus on a workshop/hammer economy in all but 3 of my cities (Capitol, the NE Sugar site and my Globe spot north of the Capitol in SBs face). This was when I decided to Lib Chemistry and then head towards Communism and run Caste.

    I kind of agree about the GLib but with access to Marble and given I'd teched Aesthetics for an Alpha trade I thought it was probably worthwhile. In hindsight it may not have been too much of a benefit though. It's probably a bad habit of mine but it certainly has its uses.

    As I said previously in the thread, but I'll Spoiler it just in case
    Spoiler :
    an Engineering attack going in to Muskets/Rifles would probably have been a much smarter move and one I wish I'd taken in hindsight. Given the map, resources and super Protective neighbours, however, I doubt much headway would have been achieved before then (no Iron or Elephants but maybe Catapults/Axes/Spears/HAs would have worked, who knows?)


    My skills are certainly not best suited to Space victories but my main issue on this map, I think, was my inability to properly plan ahead and ended up going for Space as a 'last resort' as I dithered too much on deciding if and who to attack. Not smart true, but it worked, just!!

    I'm off to find out more about this "failgold from execs" you mention. Failgold on Wonders is a tactic I use all the time, execs though....

    Cheers!
     
  16. pandamancer

    pandamancer Prince

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    I have tried this map. Love this map, I am nearly done with the game assuming something unexpected does not happen.

    @hollowbow: thanks for reviving the IU and for a nice map :goodjob:

    @ironlungs: how did you manage to play this fast?
     
  17. Hollow Bow

    Hollow Bow Chieftain

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    Nice to see people participating in this thread. Some good stuff over here.

    I'm holding off doing a writeup of my game because even though I haven't finished I'm further along, but I can see it's starting to dawn on people that despite the great start some choices aren' t perfectly obivous :p ,well except to seraiel, some nice info there, although I dunno about 16/1700BC CS oracle on this map.
    Spoiler :
    some people on the other continent that typically like early oracles might steal it if you go that late, they have strong positions


    Particularly interested to see how many sites people will settle; and wether some of you opt for early war.

    Since I had marble, and settled on it,
    Spoiler :
    I did something unorthodox, I put a city 1 SE of the Pigs to share 2 cottages + nbeing able to work the 2X 6 food during GPP generation as my NE site. I did delay AH in favor of earlier writing for an earlier academy though, since it seemed to me with the second city getting corn and being able to work some tiles from the capital whilst it growed, that I didn't stunt my capital growth much like this. Seems the consensus here is to take ah early, As seraiel said, food first :p


    @Ironlungs

    Spoiler :
    I reloaded a save right after BW to see how viable axerush would be here. I managed to take all saladins land by 300 AD, but the problem is saladins land sucks; and although I think winning lib can still be done from there, keeping up in tech with the buddhists AND taking out SB later might be pretty hard. All in all I don't think axe/cat to be worth it in this case, since you can get to 6/7 cities from where you are + your creative trait helps in getting more tiles for the 'bad' cities.


    @shiv:

    Spoiler :
    I'd take the clams site. it's not stellar, but the coast access is nice and the extra health will help, Also I'd take at least one sugar site, even though the jungle is a pain, the tradevalue of those sugar might help, and long term on the river it will be great spot.



    Spoiler from my game , little screenshot 1190AD :

    Spoiler :



    Not the best date that, I've gotten 900 AD rifles before.
    Could've gotten it 14 turns earlier, wasted time going for music + nationalism hoping to build the Taj (fail), which was unnecissarily greedy and could've been disastrous. I was playing with fire here, the other continent (those i've met) could research lib too for the last 5 turns. Working on a merchant for GA/trademission. I infected sitting bull earlier with Confu, him and saladdin been fighting for the last 1000 years :D. 1920BC oracle. Got Parth in capital and GL+NE in Lagash. bulbed philo, double bulb edu, one bulb into printing press, one into lib, if I remember right. 1040AD oxford.

    Planning to sweep the continent quickly, then... dunno, probably nukes :D

    Like this map, I'll probably replay it after I'm done to see how early I can really get rifling if I actually pay attention, I played pretty poorly this game.
     
  18. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    I've played up to about 1300AD.

    Here's how the early game went up to 1AD:

    Spoiler :
    Tech path: AH, Mining, BW, Pottery, Writing. Then I went Oracle at fairly low priority but managed to get it for CoL at 1080BC.

    Cities at 1AD:


    City dates:
    Eridu 2680BC (corn and rice)
    Kish 2080BC (corn)
    Lagash 1200BC (not a great city, gets gold and shares rice with Eridu)
    Ur 1120BC (clams)
    Nibru 770BC (jungle sugar city...bad for a long time, but I wanted to deny some space to the AIs)
    Bad-Tibira 725BC (dry rice, yuck...still trying to capture some space, though)
    Zimbir 300BC (settled for the iron)

    Some discussion on these cities in the spoilers below. ;)


    @Seriael:
    Spoiler :
    Hello mate, nice to see that you're active on the forums these days.:) To answer your comment - I settled Kish on the corn as my third city. It's in the jungle, but there's really nothing better...no other food apart from the clams (which I settled next). It wasn't an awesome city but it provided some settlers and workers and eventually became pretty decent when the jungle was cleared.


    @Ironlungs:
    Spoiler :
    As you'll see above, I did get to the iron! The settler was just about to claim the crabs, but then I traded for IW and was like: "um, where's my @#&% iron!?", and my settler changed his mind and made a quick and desperate dash for the iron. City's okay, with clams and gold too, although I couldn't work the clams for ages since two barb galleys were watching 'em like hawks (the bastards).
     
  19. Hollow Bow

    Hollow Bow Chieftain

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    Very nice landgrab there man !
    Spoiler :
    Love that blocking of Sitting bull, very agressive. Is it really worth it because of all the jungle though, I'm not 100% sure.
     
  20. NihilZero

    NihilZero WHEOOHRNY

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    Spoiler :
    I definitely tried to fence him in, because the guy is a pain. Saladin got a lot of space as a result, though. The best part of it was lucking into being able to get the iron (not that I've made enormous use of said metal, mind you).

    In summary: I dunno :p. I knew I wasn't going to war early and I didn't want to deal with huge protective empires later, so I did my best to get what land I could peacefully and jungle was all that was available.

    As things turned out, I probably could have settled the wheat too Denying SB one more spot, and still had time for the iron...but I wasn't going to risk it.
     

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