Immortal University 49 - Catherine

[TheMeInTeam]

Hello all and welcome to the Immortal University! This series was started a long time ago to move a group of the forum's players to the next level. It seems for the moment I am the partial full-time host . Are you ready for the U?

This is the 49th beatdown on the AI, in case you're keeping track.

We will uphold the university's traditions...smacking down the hapless AI!

Our leader this time around:



Sexy REXy, and this time we are not referring to former Chicago Bears QB Rex Grossman, who posted amazing QB ratings <10 at times. No, this time we take a look at Catherine of Russia, who looks a lot better than in Civ III or real life. How many treaties can you get in your pockets?

Here's the start:



Random/Fractal. Marble allows some interesting uses. We'll see how it plays out.

Huts and Events are off. If you don't like it, just plop 4 warriors somewhere in world builder and give yourself 60 gold to simulate huts, and just delete your capitol and put 3 archers there to simulate events.

Copy and Paste of the doctrine:

To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE, go ahead, but I'm not peeling off the AI bonuses. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve. Just remember, there are immortal bonuses and that's not going to change unless you WB edit it.

If you are aspiring IMM+, try to remember to add archery back to the barbs in WB. Every time you don't, a deity AI will kill a kitten, although there are a lot of kittens so it's not the end of the world if you prefer easymode barbs .

I do request people to list their difficulty and speed. In terms of updates, well nobody follows that anyway. Post in the manner you feel comfortable. Typical comparison dates are 1 AD, liberalism, and victory/defeat, as well as any major events. If in doubt, go with that.

The save!

View attachment AutoSave_Initial_BC-4000.CivBeyondSwordSave

View attachment IU 49 Catherine.zip

The initial autosave for those who want to duck having to add barbs or possibly use proper colors. It's IMM/Norm no huts/events.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

Pff... Katy? This messes my plans

I'll give it a go just for kicks, immortal should bury me before 1CE.

 

[drlake]

Heh, I'm with CT. That said, getting destroyed by the AI at Immortal might just help inspire me to kick it up to Emperor.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

Well... first try ended very abruptly when barbs knocked on my door very soon (2 turns) after I settled the second city and kind of ruined my plans of trying a Great Wall, with barbs annoying me before I even had masonry in the bag.

 

[Kadazzle]

I love Cathy, but the Marble makes this map (potentially) open to a whole different bunch of strategies. Should be interesting to see what others' do, as I'll be giving this a try as well.

 

[bobbyboy29]

Still haven't finished playing IU48! Although my exams end tomorrow so I should have more time on my hands by then.

 

[budweiser]

Oracle > CoL in 1080BC. Pausing here to watch TV.

Spoiler :

Isolation was soon apparent. Easy to fog bust because of island shape.

AG>ARCH>TW>MAS> Pottery>MYST>Med>Priest>Writing.

3 cities, cottaging FP...

 

[Sidney Magal]

It's very funny to come back to singleplayer after a semester of quasi full dedication to MP. Immortal's costs are a little higher than Noble's.

77 first turns.

Spoiler :

Settled on marble, then St. Pete to deal with the barbs.



Third city was on the (desert?) hill 2N of the stone, which landed me this:


If I can land the Library and the Parthenon, the game will be in the bag.

The only thing that may be trouble for me is that I'm too used to fighting humans, which is easier than fighting the computer.

 

[CivilizedTiger]

@budweiser

Spoiler :

How do you spawnbust here? Do you train worker in capital and then just train 8-9 warriors? Do you have enough time for that? Would it also work on epic speed?

 

[Inso]

I think I'll be settling on the marble, depending what the scout reveals. Oracle will be a certainty.

 

[DreamworK]

@ inso

I also like the idea of settling on the marble -- doesnt it give your city 3 hammers when marble is on a plains hill? This also opens up the opportunity of being able to work the incense fairly early (quite interesting it has the abnormal plains incense).

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The only thing that may be trouble for me is that I'm too used to fighting humans, which is easier than fighting the computer.

Only bad humans. While having inferior unit counts to immortal/deity AIs, humans have lots and lots of potential "screw you" strategies that take experience and in many cases careful scouting to defend.

 

[lymond]

Well... first try ended very abruptly when barbs knocked on my door very soon (2 turns) after I settled the second city and kind of ruined my plans of trying a Great Wall, with barbs annoying me before I even had masonry in the bag.

CT - This start was very easy to spawnbust with warriors. I'm wandering what you build after the worker. I grow on 2 to 4 warriors and send them out to bust, then follow-up up with occasional warriors after the settler. If you are improving your tiles correctly (work in some mines and flip tiles as needed), warriors should come pretty quickly. I lost a couple but also killed several archers with warriors. Make sure you space your warriors nicely from the city and on hills to reveal more tiles.

@1200AD or so

Spoiler :

Settled on the Marble. Mids was definitely a priority here. I didn't bother with Oracle despite marble. I'm glad I didn't as it went quickly. Sometimes Oracle can just be a waste. Ran an SE with a few cottages here and here. Decent land if not great. Focused on a push for the GL and then on to Optics. I was first to Optics and finding the AI and circum. Surprisingly, I did quite well tech wise and was not far behind the others. Key trades with non-worst enemies caught me up quick. Of course, Huayna had little land but was still a juggernaut in tech - this always baffles me. Astro was then a priority and I was able to get it and be first to Lib. Hyuana could have won LIb but he went the Economics route.

I'm finding that I'm getting more savvy running an SE economy with periodic beaker rushes (combo of running more specialists, building wealth/research to get certain techs out faster). This has really helped keep me in game son higher levels.

However, after winning Lib it was time to focus on a) settling the island to the south. (It's funny how the AI seems to have 20 galleons and settlers once they have astro). I did settle 4 cities down there but Hyuana settle one city and I actually beat him to another spot with his second settler which prevented him from settling any more cities on the island. His lone city is getting lots of culture pressure from me.

Diplo has been pretty dicey with this bunch. I kinda messed up trying to befriend Monty. He's attacking everyone but is really not strong at all. One thing that really pisses me off and I think it's a problem with the game is that I don't think AIs should be able to ask you to join a war if you are already in one.

Izzy has been a pain and finally attacked me. She made a ridiculous demand which I denied because her power was low. Of course, as usual with Civ AI they can still pump out some units. I killed the literally 10 to 15 lone cats she dumped on my island prior to her later galleons that had knights. I ACTUALLY HAD A KNIGHT DIE AGAINST A FRIKKIN CAT - that's just wrong! My pikes took care of her knights. So her attack on my mainland went nowhere for her. However, I no see 4 or 5 spanish galleons right on the doorstep of my colony. Luckily I can sue for peace now by giving her MT. I want to turn those 4 cities into a vassel.

Anyway, not sure where to go from here. I'll post screenshot later. I'm ahead on tech with Brennus, Kubla and Monty, but Hyuana is starting to run away even though he's VERY small and Kubla's vassal - another thing I think is wrong. I might have to attack Kubla and Hyuana eventually. Izzy doing well in tech too, probably in large part to having 20 gold on her island.

I need to sue peace with Izzy and then build up to take her out. Everyone hates her anyway.

 

[NihilZero]

Played to 1000AD.

Spoiler :

Moving the scout 2 SE reveals nothing, so I settle on the marble for extra hammers and even speedier rexing.

AG > AH > Wheel > Pottery

Start with worker, then warriors to size 4, then settlers and workers (pretty fast due to marble plains hill). We are isolated, so Cathy's talents are somewhat wasted in the absence of lively competition for the available land.

The land is average. Nice floodplain spot, fairly average food distribution. There is a troubling paucity of luxuries, but I guess that's normal enough in isolation.

GW goes at 1960 BC, so if I want wonders I'd better move fast.

I do get the 'Mids with very aggressive chopping at 800BC. Rep will help a little with my dismal happy cap situation.

Empire at 1AD:



All the religions are gone by 475 AD, so things are moving quite fast. I finally get to CS and move my cap to Floodplain city.

I miss the Parthenon and Sankore for nice resource-doubled failure cash (the latter would have been particularly useless in the absence of a religion). On the upside, the Pyramids gives me a GE so at least I get the Great Library in my (somewhat weak) GP farm of St Petersburg.



I win the Music artist, but:



I miss the Sistine by one turn, which pretty much pre-empts any thoughts of culture victory. On the other hand, I get a heap of fail cash for a nice charge at Lib.

1000AD. I am faced with a brain teaser.



If I tech machinery (going down the optics route and hoping to Lib Astronomy) I can't bulb Lib with my GS coming in 6 turns. If I research Lib, I lose the chance to bulb it as my GS will arrive one turn before it finishes. Delaying it seems foolhardy as the tech pace out there in the greater world has been brisk, judging by the wonders that have been built (Sankore went quick).

 

[CivilizedTiger]

CT - This start was very easy to spawnbust with warriors. I'm wandering what you build after the worker. I grow on 2 to 4 warriors and send them out to bust, then follow-up up with occasional warriors after the settler. If you are improving your tiles correctly (work in some mines and flip tiles as needed), warriors should come pretty quickly. I lost a couple but also killed several archers with warriors. Make sure you space your warriors nicely from the city and on hills to reveal more tiles.

I made a very bad choice here which meant that no spawnbusting was possible. I didn't realize that it was such a mistake because at monarch, it doesn't ruin you immediately, but immortal taught me just how bad it is. (I'm liking this fact that you get a clearer picture of your mistakes because they hurt much more) - I researched BW, and since I also had hunting, I met barb spearmen very soon.

As for how I've tried this:

Spoiler :

I first improved the corn, then the riverside grassland hill. I made the mistake of not also improving the marble with a mine which would have indeed helped a lot. I trained worker first, then 5 warriors and at size 4 I trained a settler, because I saw there was stone for a second city and I was under the wrong impression that barbs don't enter your borders until number of cities on your continent is bigger than 2 * number of civs on your continent, so I thought I'd be safe... and I thought wrong.

I also didn't think this could be spawn busted, I counted that I needed 8-9 warriors, maybe another one because I didn't finish scouting to the east. Do I really have enough time for so many warriors?

I'd really like to give this one another try, because all lessons learnt are that much more clear when a mistake ruins you. So if spawn busting really works, I'll go with that. Thanks for the tip!

 

[i_imperator]

Ill do this, Monarch, Epic. I still need to finish a couple of prince games before moving up though. Very interesting start alright.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

@ NihilZero:

Don't forget that you can bulb into lib now, and THEN switch tech to try to pick up your lib target. A bit risky, but probably the safest of the risky plays there.

1979 space (oh yes, it went late).

Spoiler :

Somehow, I don't have any early screenshots, so I'll type. I settled on the marble, 3h cap tile is obvious here, especially since it retains fresh water. Open AG then went for some wonders. I got great wall, pyramids, oracle, parthenon, narrowly missed glib and sistine. I muffed the tech order (writing too slowly) so initial tech pace was pretty bad. I lost liberalism but was #2 to astro and only by about 5 turns.

I obviously just ran settled rep spec in the capitol. In this game, montezuma got HUGE. This is what I get for not checking the map - HC is blocked from his continent by a single peak, allowing monty stupid #'s of land. More gay map imbalance. When I met monty brennus was already a cap vassal. As I struggled to keep tech parity, Monty capped KUBLAI too, but not before I threw down on the #1 tech AI in the game...Izzy. However, I went for Willem for a foothold first:



You only see the tanks, but bombers are ready to re-base. Fast cap, moving on.



Izzy next.



It was during this war that monty capped kublai and brennus beat me to internet. I made a mis-play here - I should have gone state property much sooner despite very few workshops. I lost a lot of tech rate over that, thinking it didn't matter because I'd go military. If monty hadn't capped kublai, I'd have done just that.

Monty went war mode almost instantly after kublai ----> but here, the same thing that made him so monstrous initially bit him in the backside. As far as I could tell, he picked HC over me (he was pleased with me, annoyed with the incan). This locks him into eternal WHEOOHRN - not unlike their situation on earth18civ.

So I finish off Izzy and try for space, swapping back into rep (and finally into state property)



But monty's vassal trade deals and massive green empire prove a difficult obstacle. Too little, to late for Russia?



Maybe not. I launch within those 10 turns, and 1 turn before monty's ship lands and he claims victory I toss my final gambit at him...





He kills my dutch vassal (this actually makes me happy). I had plenty of nukes but the paratroopers were a bit more dicey with jet fighters around. Granted, most were wiped out on the nuke landing, but there were still some here and there. Nevertheless...



One got through (I had about 9 more). I delete all invasion forces, and 2 turns later I can buy out for 150 gold. Next closest space guy is kublai, but he doesn't have a completed ship yet, so with 0 civs that can declare on me in the next 10 turns, and less than 10 turns to victory, that's game.



Not my best game ever, but the tank/bomber sweep worked well, as did the kamikaze nuke push.

Nukes make it all OK. Without them this game, I'd have hung an L. But thanks to them, things went differently .

 

[budweiser]

@budweiser

Spoiler :

How do you spawnbust here? Do you train worker in capital and then just train 8-9 warriors? Do you have enough time for that? Would it also work on epic speed?

Spoiler :

Archery was my second tech, so I built archers and sent them outside the borders. Second city was on desert hill to grab stone, easily protected by hill/river. Barbs are coming in from the east, more or less where I want them. I have 3 cities, 3 workers.

 

[NihilZero]

@ NihilZero:

Don't forget that you can bulb into lib now, and THEN switch tech to try to pick up your lib target. A bit risky, but probably the safest of the risky plays there.

Yes, but the thing is I can research Lib in seven turns, but I get a scientist (well, 95% chance of one...) in six turns. The timing isn't ideal.

I'll probably just play safe, hit Lib ASAP for Nationalism and hope that the Taj gives me enough of a boost to make up the difference teching towards Astronomy (which I can then bulb). Of course getting the Taj is questionable, the way wonders are getting snapped up so far.

I'm also quite worried:

Spoiler :

Demographics show that there are some biggies and some small empires out there, and judging by the amount of Great generals that have spawned, it seems likely that somebody is running away with it at somebody else's expense.

Oh well. Losing at isolation is no shame. Sometimes you can't do much about it.

 

[drlake]

Hmm, I never even considered settling on the Marble. Played to 800BC and the Barbs didn't get me. 4 cities built, but no wonders (I'm too slow at those...).