Immortal University 98 - Tokugawa

klonoklown

Civ Junky
Joined
Apr 17, 2012
Messages
331
Location
illinois
Greetings, Immortals and would-be Immortals (and indeed any other players of any level), and welcome to the Immortal University.

Here is our Leader:



Here's the opening scene:



The following settings were used to create this map



And the Demographics for people to spot any info they can



Before we start, here's the copy & paste bit where I get to pretend that I'm TMIT:

To play, just extract the WB save file into your worldbuilder saves directory, then play it. Use custom scenario if you want some extra settings to tickle your fancy. This series was designed for people learning immortal, so most people here will be at that level or trying to attain it, although deity players are welcome also. Hell, if you want to play this on NOBLE. The intention of this and any other game thread I post is to get better. Play whatever level you need in order to improve.

If you are aspiring IMM+, try to remember to add archery back to the barbs in WB. Every time you don't, a deity AI will kill a kitten, although there are a lot of kittens so it's not the end of the world if you prefer easymode barbs .

I do request people to list their difficulty and speed. In terms of updates, well nobody follows that anyway. Post in the manner you feel comfortable. Typical comparison dates are 1 AD, liberalism, and victory/defeat, as well as any major events. If in doubt, go with that.

We also have an initial Immortal/Normal autosave which is much more convenient since you can avoid all the worldbuilder shenanigans. It comes with my personal seal of approval (not least as my worldbuilder edits may contain hideous game-destroying errors that could cause your computer to explode ).
 

Attachments

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I decided to post this one a bit early because of the lack of popularity in Suleiman. (sorry guys :( , I checked for better balance in this one.) This was actually my first roll, random AI, no edits made. Enjoy!
 
I'm a little hesitant to play Toku on Deity, especially after the brutal grind i just went through in the Deity II Shaka game, but this looks like such a nice start...

Setting 1 SE could be advantageous, but it also looks suspicious so you might risk settling on horses or something.
 
Yeah I would be hesitant as well, I'm playing at Monarch which is my comfort zone, thought about Emperor but I just want a fun and relaxing game. Moving up levels might not be a good idea on this map, for one Toku has no economic traits and...

Spoiler slight AI spoiler, no names :
The AI on this map, randomly generated are a bit blood thirsty! :ar15:
 
1655 Domquest

Spoiler :


This one didn't go my way. Catphant on korea, then took out china with catphant even though he had longbows + CKN. After a very brief stay I DoW'd on Saladin and took all of 1 city before Zara joined in (AP immediately kicked him out). So far so good...but then Sal PAvassal'd to Shaka. Well crap. This left me with samurai + treb (almost entirely via brokering from 2 vassals) + noobyphant + longbow vs cuirassers. Whatever, samurai are really good. It took time, but with HE spamming out CR III samurai and other cities spamming elephants and trebuchets, I cut down shaka's mainland cities, causing him and sal to cap.

Zara scared me because he was pretty big, but in the renaissance he didn't prioritize rifling. When I DoW rather late he still didn't have it, not that it would have mattered at this point. I got peppered by airships and had to fight cuirassers and oromos, but that's nothing 3-4 promo super knights, toku muskets, samurai with CR III and combat II, and trebuchets can't handle easily enough. Since he was quite a large empire it took a while to get him to give up, but I did have some vassals with rifling which helped.



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I wasn't quite at dom threshold, so I simply DoW'd caesar, killed his stack, took 1 city, and capped him. Game over.



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I did broker for cuirassers sometime after capping Zara. Go me.

 
Spoiler :
Won this by domination. The game was pretty tricky, because both Shaka and Wang Kon DoW'ed me very early. I anticipated a DoW from Shaka though, so I settled on a hill towards him. Protection actually saved me this game, as Wang Kon declared very early BCs (didn't know he would do that) with 1 axeman and 4 archers (actually never saw a 4 archer rush). I had 2 archers and only one died, so I guess I got lucky :).
 
825 AD

Spoiler :
Settled 1E, peacefully expanded to four cities, beelined towards construction. First I took three cities of Wangs, during that time Shaka decided to declare on me, but he had this pitful stack of 1 cat, 3 impi and a few archers! He wouldn't take peace, so I took peace with Wang leaving him with 2 cities.

When I was starting to put the hurt on shaka and tech towards engineering, saladin teched feudalism and decided to whore it around to everybody else. I didn't notice this till Wang peace vassaled to Zara, oh well no big deal. I picked up feud myself and capped Shaka about four cities in.

Now I have a decent stack of phants and cats, whipping some trebs right now, and at 11 cities. I think saladin will be my next victim since he is putting a lot of culture pressure on my western shaka cities. Phants, cats, and trebs should be plenty to take him out. From there might continue warring or maybe tech to Cuirs and start chain capping.
 
SIP seems to be the obvious move here, as is usually the case with Toku, I am not sure on the tech-path. Agri - Pottery -> BW? :undecide:

Off-topic:
@ Klonoklown

I actually enjoyed the Suleiman map. Ended in an Immortal Sushi- Rep monstrosity, peaceful space race. Though it was boring and I was quite rusty, so didn't post it. I can see why it was unpopular though. Still, I liked it and thank you for maintaining the excellent series! :)
 
Off-topic:
@ Klonoklown

I actually enjoyed the Suleiman map. Ended in an Immortal Sushi- Rep monstrosity, peaceful space race. Though it was boring and I was quite rusty, so didn't post it. I can see why it was unpopular though. Still, I liked it and thank you for maintaining the excellent series! :)

Good, glad to hear you enjoyed the map, and your welcome. One of the main reasons I continue the series is because I enjoy helping people, and forum games IMO is one of the best ways for "noobs" to learn and better there own game play. Forum games is definitely one of the many tools I used to increase my game play, and understanding of the game. (also the inner mechanics of Civ, very interesting.)
 
SIP seems to be the obvious move here, as is usually the case with Toku, I am not sure on the tech-path. Agri - Pottery -> BW? :undecide:

Off-topic:
@ Klonoklown

I actually enjoyed the Suleiman map. Ended in an Immortal Sushi- Rep monstrosity, peaceful space race. Though it was boring and I was quite rusty, so didn't post it. I can see why it was unpopular though. Still, I liked it and thank you for maintaining the excellent series! :)

I put pottery off a bit b/c i wasn't ready to work the cottages yet. I think i went Agri > Mining > BW > Pottery > Hunting
 
Agreed. I didn't discuss tech path in my spoiler, but with the dubious only 1 unforested tile you often won't want a cottage there, and you're not putting them anywhere else in capitol until you chop forests out of the way.

Of course, you could be a complete weirdo like me and not chop them anyway :D. So much :health:!

Pro-mode. I'm so good at this game. Soon I will master the technique of settling on the corn too.
 
Immortal/Normal, to 925BC:

Spoiler :

I saw Wang Kon had a worker I could steal at 3440 BC, so I decided to try this:
Spoiler :

Unfortunately I forgot to pillage his farm (my warrior wasn't in danger). I don't think stealing the worker hurt him very much (note he is already size 3). It took awhile to get a cease-fire, apparently due to my low power rating. I think WK finally took a cease-fire in 3040BC (wouldn't take a peace treaty). Not long after, he started plotting war:eek:...

Tech path was Ag->Mining->Hunting->BW->Myst->AH->Archery->Pottery->Writing->Aest(due in 2 turns). I didn't find any strategic resources in convenient locations, so I decided to do without them for now. WK was teching Alpha, which I hoped he would trade to someone, but it hasn't happened so far. WK declared on me in 1000 BC with this stack:
Spoiler :

The stack attacked my capitol which had 5 archers (4 with CG2). I also put 4 archers in the adjacent city in case WK switched targets. I lost 2 archers defending and 2 more wiping out the remaining axes. WK will not talk yet:
Spoiler :

Even a defensive war is expensive. The hammer and upkeep cost of all those archers must be far higher than what I gained with the extra worker, and there is also the opportunity cost of no Oracle attempt and no trades with my nearest neighbor (I built roads to Sal just before the war but I could have connected to WK sooner).

Maybe some strong player can enlighten me: was the worker steal a serious mistake, did I misplay after it somehow, or did I just get unlucky with that WK started plotting and I had no strategic resources? I'm tempted to restart to see how much better I could do without the worker steal, but maybe I should continue and try to learn from my mistakes. :confused:
 
Spoiler :


1600 and the game is in the bag. I started ag->bw->hunting->pottery. Landed oracle in like 750 bc... i wouldnt have even tried for it except i already had writing, and was waiting for academy, so figured id give it a try since i had a city next to the marble, prechopped some trees, and even without math it was like 3-4 chops and it was done the same turn i got priesthood, i took alphabet.. which was silly because i didnt get many trades out of it, peacefully got up to 5 cities, and waited till cannons to declare, i took constitution from lib, which was also dumb but, taking gunpowder would have seemed ridiuclous, and i figured i could get some trades out of constitution, i only beat zara to lib by 2 or 3 turns, the whole map is buddhist so its been a lovefest and zara and saladin have been trading like mad, also got screwed 3 times on GP's, 3 priests at under 10% chance each time. Anyway, i upgraded maybe 20 samarais CR2 thanks to using a priest to bulb theology, and whipped out 10 or so cannons, wang capped in 5 or 6 turns, chinese about 10 turns after that, and then i went back across for shaka, who capped after i took 3 cities. im at 50% land now, and i have such a massive stack its ridiculous, im also 2 turns from infantry so the game seems to be in the bag, so long as all 3 of them dont dow me at once, i can get zara to gift me something almost for sure, and maybe saladin too but hes kinda stingy, and every dow so far jc has refused my requests, so he may the one to go first, especially since hes a little behind in techs.



to the worker stealing... i think most people think you should also try to kill any scouts you can, and it helps if you can plant like a guerilla2 warrior on a forest tile, that way you can screw with them until cease fire. For 1 worker its not really worthwhile though, but if you stick 2 or 3 warriors on tiles, and one or so of them has 2 moves in forests, sometimes you can steal 2 or 3 workers, thats when it really starts to be worthwhile, easy workers and it really seems to mess up the ai. Like many people have said though, it almost ensures a BC dow though, which makes things tricky with bribing people in and whatnot, plus you have to really worry about defending which is also sort of annoying. In my own experience, i wouldnt even attempt it unless theres only 2 people bordering you, when theres 4 or 5 civs on your border its makes watching diplomacy and defending too ridiculous for whats gained
 
to the worker stealing... Like many people have said though, it almost ensures a BC dow
I haven't read this before. I am only recently attempting to make the jump to immortal. In my worker stealing games on emperor/monarch, the victim only retaliated once--around 1AD as I got maces+cats. I guess worker stealing on immortal often causes more harm than good.
 
Spoiler :

1 turn after my stone hooked up, saladin lands the mids... in 1800 B.C.

man, i need to take a small break from civ! that really made me mad! :lol:
 
I haven't read this before. I am only recently attempting to make the jump to immortal. In my worker stealing games on emperor/monarch, the victim only retaliated once--around 1AD as I got maces+cats. I guess worker stealing on immortal often causes more harm than good.

You can do it on imm but its better if your target is a wimp and not like Shaka. It's also better if you plan to follow it up with a choke or a rush. Probably not a good idea to do it and then try to tech to lib.
 
Well this one didn't go so well (deity).

Spoiler :
I got the Mids, but was boxed in with 5 cities and getting culture pressed really badly by both Zara and Wang. Then to top things off JC showed up around 700-800 BC with a stack of Praets. Game ova!
 
You can do it on imm but its better if your target is a wimp and not like Shaka. It's also better if you plan to follow it up with a choke or a rush. Probably not a good idea to do it and then try to tech to lib.

Snaaty went the worker steal route in his "another hof space race start" thread on immortal, but really Tachy put a lot of work into the guide in strategy articles and so that's where I'd recommend looking. People like Nappy and Ragnar would be incredibly difficult to worker steal while some of the MILKE TOASTYs are quite steal-able on deity.
 
Snaaty went the worker steal route in his "another hof space race start" thread on immortal, but really Tachy put a lot of work into the guide in strategy articles and so that's where I'd recommend looking. People like Nappy and Ragnar would be incredibly difficult to worker steal while some of the MILKE TOASTYs are quite steal-able on deity.

ok... and what the heck is a MILKE TOASTY??? :eek:

edit: oh... oh right... i get it... *hangs head in shame* :crazyeye:
 
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