Immortal University VII - Hannibal of Carthage

[silverbullet]

After the last Immortal University game, I hope this one will be a bit easier.
Many are still playing the last game, but for those of us who abandoned all hope, or have already won it, a new game begins:

The start:



(Did I just hear anyone in the crowd mentioning great lighthouse?)

 

[mystyfly]

Holy Cow, THIS is a nice coastal start. Settler spree after chopping the GLH. I'm definitely in!

 

[Guardian_PL]

Magnificent start, I'd settle 1N though, 2 plain cows equals production superhouse.

 

[mystyfly]

@Guardian_Pl:

Spoiler :

thing is, 1N you lose many nice land tiles as well as a hill. North of the capital site there might be only place for one more city so leaving cows for another city might be good.

 

[Jet]

A census taker once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

 

[Guardian_PL]

@mystyfly
What do You mean by "many"? Two. One hill, and one grassland forest. Combine those two and You have improved Plain Cow tile yield. So one clam will wait for another city, but there's corn and two cows, plus lake (+3, +3 with Lighthouse).

 

[mystyfly]

Something tells me that we'll find more seafood and many sites with lots of coastal tiles. I think moai should go in one of these. And I don't like working coastal tiles without moai (even when FIN) so I'll try to keep as many land tiles in the BFC as possible. Also on the spot where the warrior is, there is likely a strategic ressource.

 

[Gliese 581]

Looks like a good GP farm, to little land to make a good capital, only 8 land tiles and 2 sea resources. It's to bad it doesn't have fresh water since health can be an issue in GP farms but coastal helps with health as well.
It could also be a great production site with Moai if there are other GP farm -sites out there.

Edit: I'm not so sure there's a strategic resource where the warrior is, you have 3 different resources in the bfc already with 4 resources total.

 

[Jet]

450 AD

Spoiler :

I'll let the picture do the talking.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Alright, I've won enough on emperor to need another beating on immortal. Right now I'm doing earth 18 civ games on the LAN with my friend. When that's over I'm doing this (hopefully better than my pitiful IU1 showing) and the LHC game with charley.

 

[Cleverbeans]

I'm going to make the jump from Noble straight to immortal and play this game. Updates pending.

 

[Gliese 581]

I played until 650 bc and so far I think I'm in an awesome position. I stopped at 1535 AD in the Charlie game since I ran into some serious obstacles and need to play with some focus there so I switched it up a bit to relax.

 

[tycoonist]

Hannibal!!! hurray!!

 

[patagonia]

Really looking forward to this one. Haven't played a game with Han in a while.

 

[Gliese 581]

Part 1 (4000 BC - 650 BC):

Spoiler :

4000: I decided to settle in place. 1N would give another plains cow but lose a clam and also have 1 less land tile. Since we start with fishing and are financial, I prefer to go WB/WB/Worker here.
I went for BW directly since food was taken care of.

3920: My warrior pop the hut.



Thankyou, come again! I don't mind spending a turn of research on it at all muahaha.
I start on Agriculture. The turn after I discover that copper is really close, this is looking better and better.

3800: I meet Cyrus scout coming from the south.

3720: Cyrus bypasses a hut south of Carthage which turns out to be another blessing.



Really, I was happy with popping BW with a warrior on Immortal but I suppose this is my lucky day.

3680: Carthage grows to size 2. I adopt slavery, whip the WB the turn after and start on WB#2.

3480: I finish Agriculture and start on Hunting. I have a feeling I might do the traditional axe-rush but you better bring spears against Cyrus and Hunting will save me some research on AH.

3400: Whip 2nd WB start on worker. Discover that Cyrus is indeed close.



There's also some awkward gold there, no good way to work it really since it's all desert and no food.

3320: Meet Tokugawa coming from the north-east, gah I hate that guy.

3280: Finish Hunting start on AH.

3080: Meet Catherine coming from the north. She'll gobble some land for sure, better try to build some friendship here.

3000: Finish AH start on The Wheel. Whip worker and start building warriors.
Cyrus expands toward me claiming the pig and corn. I discover he has horses in his capital's BFC, not good.

2720: Finish TW start on Mysticism.

2480: Finish Mysticism start on Pottery.

2280: Finish Pottery start on Writing.

2240: I finally build my second city. I was delayed a bit after the first warrior I sent there got killed but I'm still a bit late here, need to speed things up.



This city is going to suck if I claim the corn with Carthage which I might later on but for now it'll claim the copper and help me build an army.

1920: Finish Writing start on Sailing.

1880: Meet Sury's WB coming from the south.

1000: I DOW Cyrus.



I brought extra spears since he has some immortals, it's a good thing they don't get 100% vs axes on defense as well although they do get defensive bonuses.

975: Pasargadae falls.



I either lost one axe or none, can't remember. In any case I had good luck here, seems to be a theme for this game.
It's remarkable that I didn't get my army ready until 1000 BC although I had copper so close. It shows how much building workboats slows you down (and one of the reasons why I prefer inland starts with good food).

925: Cyrus completes The Great Lighthouse in Persepolis. My god, this luck is insane!

800: After healing my troops I send them on to Persepolis (one axe and one spear went ahead to pillage the horses straight away).



I lose a few axes here but I would have been ok with losing all but one troop basically.

775: After finishing some last troops I start on a library in Carthage and a settler in Utica to grab gems and sugar up north before Tokugawa claims them.

725: I get my first GG which I send to Persepolis. I'll probably trash Utica sooner or later and Carthage will be my GP farm. Pasargadae has virtually no hammers and will be a commerce city that relies on whipping early game. So the only remaining choice is Persepolis.
I might make a HE/Moai combo here although it would also make a great GT city. But drafting is not going to happen for a long time.

650: My remaining troops captures and raze Susa.



I will probably place a filler city here sooner or later since it has fish but I want to save on upkeep right now. I pillaged a farm and will pillage the cottages as well.

A shot of the empire at the end of the first session:



Cyrus has two cities left, both very lightly defended. I'll raze Ecbatana but I'll keep Tarsus. I don't see any other way of obtaining the gold effectively and early happy resources are valuable even to a charismatic leader. At least this way I can work one of them at stagnation and I also have TGL so I'll not be losing money (I might even be earning some?).
I ran into an immortal up north so my settler had to wait for a spear to hook up with the axe I already sent to the area.
I'm 1 turn from getting Aesthetics and Sury got Alphabet this turn so hopefully I can trade for that and then possibly get IW from Cathy to get the gems online asap.

It's looking very good so far!

 

[JBossch]

until 500BC:

Spoiler :

And away we go...

I decided to settle in place with the intention of using Carthage as a GP farm down the line. I just can't pass up these big food starts and I put it to use here, whipping Carthage for all it was worth.

My initial tech order was: Ag->Hunting->AH->wheel->writing (I think) and my initial builds were: Workboat->workboat->warrior(partial)->worker followed by a few more warriors.

3920BC: I pop BW from a hut!
2840BC: I meet Cyrus and figure the GLH will have to at least be postponed.
3760BC: I pop masonry from a hut! The gods are really smiling on me today. Maybe GLH is still an option?
2560BC: I meet Sury.
2320BC: Utica is founded in a crap spot to get bronze and start building axes.
1520BC: I meet Tokugawa.
1280BC: Hadrumetum is founded to get the gems/sugar spot to the NE and it promptly begins tanking my econ.
1080BC: I DoW Cyrus with my stack of about 6 axes and 3 spears. Its a small force but I am hoping it will do the job while I bring up a few reinforcements. My army is 1 turn away from strike when they take the first city. How's that for pinching pennies?
1040BC: I meet Cathy.

I quickly take Pasargadae which has founded both Judaism and Hinduism! It has almost no production but the good news is Cyrus already cottaged it for me. This will be a settler pump for a little while and then eventually the Wall Street city. I will need to get a G. Prophet or two though, and I don't know how yet.

875BC: I take Persepolis and Cyrus's back is broken.


As soon as it comes out of revolt I begin a desperate bid for the GLH. Carthage is busy working scientists and I have other plans for it so it will have to be here. Unfortunately, the lighthouse was destroyed in the attack and it has to be whipped.

Susa soon falls and I raze Ecbatana, destroying Persia:


The workers captured from Cyrus are a big help with chopping and in 525BC my efforts pay off:



The situation in 500BC:

The capital:


The Empire:


Demographics: (not often I have best GDP at this stage )


Tech situation:


Annoyingly, Toku is the only one to have teched alphabet. I went on an aesthetics tangent thinking others would get it. Currently, I am 3 turns from Lit, at which point I will begin GLib in Carthage. Also, I have 3 settlers on the way to found the cities marked on the save, including a junker to get the 2 gold.

I have some decisions to make:
1) What to tech after Lit? I am thinking Alpha, checking every turn to see if another picks it up first. I really need IW though. Also, what about HBR soon for the UU? I'll bet they mop up barbs really well.
2) What wonders to chase? I have already decided on GLib in Carthage but I am considering ToA in Persepolis. It would synergize great with GLH and give me a good shot at a prophet or two for shrines (Persep also has Stonehenge). Problem is, I also want Parth and there is nowhere else to build it really. Should I go for both or is it too late?
3) I will soon pop a GS in Carthage. What to do with him? Many immortal players like to settle but with the GLH I may be able to keep the slider a bit higher. Or maybe not since I am about to REX but they might be making me money with the GLH. Is academy a smarter choice? Good news is I should be swimming in GS's once Carthage gets going.
4) Espionage. I have no clue on this one and rarely make much use of espionage in general.

All in all I think it was a very strong opening and I should be in position to bulb myself into the stratosphere soon. Any advice is appreciated.

 

[JBossch]

@Gliese

Spoiler :

Just read your report and it looks like we did almost the same thing. We even had the same techs pop from huts. You had a little extra luck with the GLH being built for you but I guess I got 2 religions.
When did the AIs tech alphabet in your game? I am trying to decide whether or not to tech it myself.
Also, what are you going to do with the junk copper city? I hesitated to build this but learned a hard lesson about delaying axe rushes for crazy wonder gambits in the last game. I am planning on giving Carthage back its corn farm and running piles of scientists.

 

[Gliese 581]

JBossch:

Spoiler :

Yep, similar games indeed. You even built TGL in the same city, good job on that. You also got the war finished a little faster than me and settled Hadrumentum faster, great work. Toku already had a city close when I built Hadrumentum in my game but unfortunately a couple of turns later Cathy also placed a city close. Given the big land areas to the north and west I figured she would be located up there somewhere, now her culture is going to steal the gems unless I really press it since she's creative (both cities have the gem in 2nd ring).
Tokugawa got Alphabet really early in my game as well but then he always does that. I don't know why since he never trades with anyone..Sury got Alphabet the turn before I ended my first round in 650 BC, unfortunately he went straight for aesthetics after that so I got no trade with him. He also beat me with a turn to Literature but I got GLib (details to follow in next post).
Cathy got Alphabet in 200 BC.
About the copper city, I'm letting it share the corn with Carthage for now to get some whips and just using it as a settler/worker pump and build a few turns on parthenon here and there while growing, I'll probably not complete it though, just want to get some extra money and capitalize on the marble hookup.
Once I'm in Caste and need more food in Carthage (can already run 4 scientists there with lighthouse and 2clam, sea tile and plains cow, which makes 6 total with glib), I'll deprive it of the corn but will probably continue building more units. With irrigated plains tiles by the sea tiles it can get 15 production which is pretty good until middle ages. (center + 4farms = 5h + 4 from copper and 2x3 from grassland hills at size 7).

Edit: I'll take a look at your save tomorrow night, but right now I need to get some sleep.

 

[JBossch]

500BC-1AD:
(all AIs met)

Spoiler :

Beware: There was a lot of diplomatic maneuvering this round and what follows is a lot of detailed blah-blahing about it. This is a stage in the game where I am always in doubt on immortal. I think I am usually too hasty in deciding pretty dramatic stuff like canceling deals, etc.

475BC: We don't have to wait long for someone other than Toku to get alpha. Cathy has it and she wants to deal.


Problem is I don't really see a need for maths right now. I've already deforested my land horribly and I'd much rather have alpha. Also, I am still hoping to get the Parthenon which I am building/chopping in my crappy copper city and am loath to give Cathy a shot at it. I hold out this time.

400BC: Lit is in and I put one turn into alpha. Now its time to trade:


On the same turn:


I also switch Espionage to Cathy this turn. Don't really know about this one.

375BC: Hippo (N horses), Leptis (2 gold) and Kerkouane (N rice/cows) are founded.

350BC: ToA BIAFAL. Of course, I had been foolishly going for it in Persepolis. I start Moai instead. I really want prophet points here.

325BC: Another trade with Sury. I figure its ok to give him alpha since he is confucian and probably wont trade with anybody.

He is likely to be diplomatically isolated for a long time and should be easy pickings later on (if I don't botch things up, of course.)

300BC: I get Buddhism in Leptis. Now I have to make a big decision. I can go Jewish and try to use Toku as a proxy against Cathy until I am ready to backstab him. This plan sounds horrible even as I write it. Trying to get Toku to warm up is like trying to thaw an iceberg with a blowdryer.
Alternatively, I can go buddhist and try to buddy up with Cathy. With Toku in the middle I shouldn't have to worry about a backstab for a little while. However, I haven't met Buddhism's founder yet so I don't even know what I would be getting into. I can't decide and I'd rather not interrupt my wonder-spam so I do nothing for now.

250BC: Say hello to Izzy, the founder of Buddhism. That decides it for me. I have an epiphany and convert to Buddhism.
Also, it looks like she is on another continent which means my trade routes just got a lot better.

I also gift aesthetics to Toku this turn (I had already given him Poly and cows). Now the fear is that Toku will come at me. That is a standard move for him in my experience and he already has -1 for border tensions. Now add religious hatred. At least half my cities are building units to keep my power halfway respectable but he could crush me if he came now. HBR is in soon and we will crank some Numidian Cavalry.

200BC: I looked at this one for 2 turns before deciding on it.


OK, I rarely trade for piles of little stupid techs but in this case I feel I can put all of these to direct use relatively soon.
1) Archery gives me a cheap unit to spam and frees up axes to head to the front with Toku.
2) Med allows a possible Philo bulb and allows SP which I am considering in Persepolis for priest points.
3) PH allows me to tech/trade monarchy. I desperately need to open up the happy cap with HR.
4) Mono allows OR which I need for a little missionary spam.

125BC: Parthenon is in.


75BC: GLib is in:


25BC: We meet Lincoln, who is also Buddhist. That decision looks better all the time. He also appears to be overseas and I need to have my workboat scout his cities ASAP for trade route awesomeness.
We make a couple deals:



Time to switch up:


1AD: Isabella builds the AP and wins the election (I voted for Lincoln). Get ready for some religious warfare. I wonder how fast Toku will get dog-piled.


Well, at the end of this round I retain my economic dominance.


...and the tech situation seems ok.


From here I figure I will prepare for an attack on Toku. I don't yet know what I plan to hit him with but I figure I need a respectable army for defense and in case of an AP declaration.
Tech-wise I will likely head for liberalism, bulbing with a vengeance.
One problem is that I don't see a great place to relocate my capital for big bureaucracy bonuses. Carthage should be good enough for now I suppose, due to trade routes, but it will soon be turning hammers off in favor of scientists.
Also, I screwed up by switching civics before getting to CoL. I will have to wait a few extra turns to go for caste system.

Any critique of my diplomacy and trading is welcome. I feel a lot of important decisions were made on that front in this round.

 

[patagonia]

Chapter 1: 4000BC - 875BC (80 turns)

Spoiler :

Like pretty much everyone else (I expect), a coastal start with Hannibal screamed Great Lighthouse to me, so the early game here was all about getting that sorted out.

I moved the warrior NE onto the forested hill before settling, and spying jungle, eventually decided to settle Carthage 1N for the extra plains cow. We're lacking a fresh water bonus, but are coastal which goes some way to making up for that once Cothon's are built. I decided to build a worker first while researching agriculture, since I wanted to be working that corn ASAP and unlock animal husbandry quickly too. A couple of turns later, I got a decent slice of luck from a hut:



I spied copper to the SE, and met Cyrus very quickly in that direction. Spotting a narrow isthmus between where his scouts were coming from and Carthage, it looked like I'd have to box him off quickly, especially when he settled his second city near there very shortly afterwards. Unfortunately there wasn't any food in that direction, which meant any city founded that way wouldn't be up to much. I stuck Utica 2E of the copper, chopping a monument there to get the border pop quickly and diverted research to hunting when I spotted a couple of Immortals. REX was then put on hold while Carthage completed an important wonder:



Once the Great Lighthouse was complete, it was time to expand again. First up was Hadrumetum, a junk city to grab the gold, which will pay for itself thanks to the trade route boost. I've just finished IW and am now about to start expanding north into the jungle belt. The main problem there is that Carthage is currently my only decent worker/settler pump so I'm not sure whether to devote it totally to that, or to whip a library and get some scientists going straight away. Thanks to gold and charismatic, my happy cap is already well over that for health.

An overview of the empire:



Sury's lands are to the SW, while Toku seems to be east of the jungle belt. I'm planning on founding my next city to grab fish and horses over in that direction so I can get some Numidians going.

==========

With this much land available on the main continent, how quickly would you look to expand to the islands between Carthage and Khmer territory? The only accessible source of iron's on one so I was thinking maybe city 5 should go there?