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IMP settler first or worker first?

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Keilah, Jul 29, 2011.

  1. PeteJ

    PeteJ Warlord

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    Here is another worker first attempt:

    Spoiler :




    This time I teched agg>ah>mining>fishing>writing. I went worker first, then grew to size 3 on a warrior, then worker>settler.

    I was a little slower getting my first settler out but I do have 3 tile improvements, a nice road network that will save me many worker turns, my horses are connected, I have 8 hammers into a warrior, I'm 3 turns from improving the fish and 2 turns from improving the gold mine. My cap is at size 3 and my second city will reach size 2 in 2 turns(just in time to work the gold).

    Save is attached.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Mylene

    Mylene Deity

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    Pete's save looks like the strongest, cos the gold city would be the desireable place for me not 2x coastal.
     
  3. Keilah

    Keilah King

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    Interesting choice moving the capital down there to the south. It does throw a bit of a wrench into things because 'which city location is preferable' is not really a measurable thing.

    As I see it, 'unmeasurable' advantages for worker first:
    -more flexibility in 2nd city placement
    -more map knowledge before placing 2nd city
    -easier barb defense since a warrior comes out sooner

    unmeasurables for settler first:
    -freedom in early tech route - can go straight to BW before food, or go for a religion
    -if you are cramped and find a good spot near the AI, settler first will take that spot up to immortal, but on emperor-immortal the AI always settles before you if you open worker first
    -makes it not quite as terrible to roll a crap starting position as you'll have less emphasis on the capital
    -two equally developed cities instead of 1 big and 1 small. Not entirely certain that's a benefit when you think about multipliers and wonderbuilding, but it's something to consider

    I think I'll make a new thread, with the capital already settled, and go for some measurables. I think t50 would be a little better than t40 as a place to judge. Maybe instead we could take HTadus's suggestion... 3 cities, 3 workers, and a total of 5 pop? The thing about that is the different opening are naturally DIFFERENT, not necessarily better/worse in every area. It seemed like, on this start, settler first had the edge in commerce/food/hammers but certainly had less worker turns available, and worker first resulted in higher total population. hum.
     
  4. vicawoo

    vicawoo Chieftain

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    Didn't I do a thread about this a few months ago?

    http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=424154

    It really depends on the tiles. The problem is that even though you have great settler production from your first two cities, you're not very good at producing anything else until you build a worker (turn 32). If you start with mining first, chopping will get you a faster start.

    Irrigated corn, I'd definitely go worker first.

    Edit: stronger imp first saves would be one with lesser food sources, like unirrigated rice.
     
  5. Keilah

    Keilah King

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    According to your thread, it looks like the strongest opening, if you start with agri or mining, and have 2 irrigated food sources in the capital, is to go worker first, improve both resources, and then chop your settler out.

    Seems to me that with Justinian, settler first can definitely be optimal if you start with no agriculture resources. Settler first gives you time to tech mining and AH while you build your first 2 workers.
    In a lot of situations I think it'd be close as Justinian, like in the save I posted (although I believe settler first is still ahead in those examples).
    And if you get 2 good agriculture resources and an unforested hill, well, fine, build the worker first and grow to size 3.
     
  6. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    there certainly will be starts where settler first will beat worker first (I think the one where you can't tech something relatively cheap like agri to improve food is good example), but I still think your game is not the instance.

    When I tried it the worker didn't wasted any worker turns just standing (AH was home at good point after corn was improved, that forest helped with it a bit wasting movement turns ;-)).

    As for the Pete's newest attempt... there is too much artificial knowledge involved imo :).
    The pigs are not visible at T0 after warrior move (I think the forest is blocking the view from the hill?), so the player has the option of settling 1N on PH moving from corn or settling in place with corn as strongest food.

    The gold spot is very strong indeed and I was thinking about making the city 2 there, but since I SIPed the pigs looked like much stronger spot, but the settler 2 was "rushed" so I have the gold asap too.
    I would just place it 1NW of gold to get more FP's and stone in BFC.

    Actually I was thinking that 40 turns is not much. Much better would be to make it 70 turns (the usual turn number in Cookbooks) since here we see really small differences.
     
  7. PeteJ

    PeteJ Warlord

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    Well in my first attempt I actually moved the warrior 1 sw onto the hill and spied the pigs. I didn't really think too much into the warrior move because I figured I would just be settling the ph anyway. I settled my capital south because I figured coastal fish/pig was stronger than coastal clam/plains sheep and I wanted to make sure I had something decent to improve with my worker.

    Also I do agree that 40 turns is not enough time. Someone should roll a new map that might be good for settler first and we should play it out a little longer. Like maybe 1000bc or something around then.

    Edit:
    Yeah the reason i put the gold city there was so I could work the pig with my second city and get a quick worker out and improve the gold right away. In my first attempt I did settle the gold city 1s of where it is so I guess you could consider that "artificial knowledge".
     
  8. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    I hadn't heard anyone mention it, and it might have been a bad idea, but, the options were roughly:
    1) worker->settler
    2) settler->worker
    3) settler->settler->worker

    I thought, I'd try something more difficult, I went:
    4) settler->settler->settler.

    (Capitol) settler->settler->settler-> (and later) warrior->warrior->warrior->WB
    (2nd city) worker (chop last settler, chop worker)->worker (Irr. corn)->worker
    (3rd city) warrior->warrior->warrior->worker
    (4th city) settler was in route. Would have created city on turn 42.

    Researched Mining->BW->Ag->Fishing (just started, 0 turns in)

    Bolds are what was completed in the 40 turns.
    Chopped 1 tree towards the 3rd settler.
    (2nd City) I was 28 production towards the 2nd worker, but, 1st worker was 2 turns from finishing it's chop toward that worker.
    (3rd City) I had 7 production towards its 1st warrior.

    I encountered a barb archer, which, killed itself on my starting warrior for 2xp.
    I settled to get 2-3 food per city along the coast.
    With more time, I would have settled the 3rd settler, had the corn irrigated, had enough warriors fogbusting to prevent excessive barbs popping up, had more workers, and chopped or whipped out WBs.

    The 3rd settler was headed to the 2 fish and 1 deer Tundra location up top.
    A fast start. I don't normally play normal speed.
    I found copper to the South, was considering building another settler for it, but, no time.
    I did not switch to slavery yet (no cities with 2 pop, so, no point yet)
     

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  9. vranasm

    vranasm Deity

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    @plasma

    you left only the sheep to feed the capital? ugh...

    as I said earlier... at T40 it's tough to say which position is stronger.

    we should probably try move the map closer to T70, the differences then would be more obvious. (after that point it begins to be complicated mostly because some saves could go for HA rush etc)
     
  10. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    sheep+crab are for the Capitol, but, I didn't use them, because, I used the 3 prod hill and forest chops to test the IMP trait, on top of the double Prod hill I started on.
    corn+clam+fish for City2
    pig+fish for city3
    deer+fish+fish for city4


    The downside of this, is obviously the undeveloped resourses, and how long does one want to go before developing them.
    In my test, I would have 4 cities by turn 42, but, I hadn't researched AH yet, so, my workers couldn't place a pasture on the sheep, pig, or hadn't revealed the horse yet.
    So, behind in other ways.

    At the point I was at, one could research Fishing or AH, starting either.
    This was fast to expand, but, my economy started crashing too.
    I didn't have pottery or sailing, and at this point, not even fishing.
    So, a quick land grab is possible with IMP, but, one will be hurt by the slower research and city maintenaince+distance costs.

    I tested it to turn 70, and I was down to 20-30% research. Fishing and some of the cities that grew, were what saved me. I still didn't have horses and Native America was expanding too. They placed a city 4E to get the stone.

    After worker3 from city2, I switched to a monument to be able to reach the its fish.
    I built workboats, barracks and alot of unnecessary roads from workers with not enough things to do. AH was just about to come in.

    That's strange, t70 replaced my t40 img and the forum says I have already uploaded that image?
    I should be able to keep both up here.
     

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  11. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    One thing that can be said about IMP settler-first is that it is the only way you can beat an immortal AI to a 2nd city. If you're one of those flying camera fog lookers, you might be able to gauge proximity and scout/settle that direction. An efficiency hit might be worth it for a blocking site.
     
  12. Skallagrimson

    Skallagrimson Deity

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    Another scenario that might make IMP settler-first worthwhile is if you want to leverage Justinian's Mysticism starting tech to found Hinduism. The settler work and delayed worker means you can get by with a delay in researching worker techs, and it synergizes well with an Oracle build (pops a Prophet), to shrine the cap holy city. Spamming the religion can allow more rapid expansion (peaceful or early war) with less economy crash effect, thus more BPTs by 0 a.d.
     
  13. plasmacannon

    plasmacannon Emperor

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    Founding a religion is useful if timed correctly, but, I don't think that tech path would have helped what I tested.
    When, I built my 1st two settlers, barbs came out and I was more concerned with how I was going to deal with them.
    I beat a wounded archer vs my warrior on a hill (pre t40). I lost 2 warriors vs 1 warrior (pre t70). So, chariots, axemen or HAs would have helped much more than a religion early on.
    Oracling CoL to get Confucianism would be a way to get a religion and an important tech at the same time, while, not viering off track early needed techs.
     
  14. Fleme

    Fleme Obey the Kitty!

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    I don't know whether or not it has been mentioned as I pretty much just looked at the screenshots coming here. The situations in which I use a settler first strategy with IMP is when I can settle on a 2h (plains phant, stone, marble, hill) tile and consequently work a 3h tile to maximize the speed in which the settler comes out. I do suck at math and have no idea of how optimal this is but I've found that 5 hammers is the best if you want that second settler out fast and that in this scenario settler first is clearly superior to worker first in terms of earlier second city.
     
  15. Keilah

    Keilah King

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    Found hindu, get agri->mining->priesthood->writing and oracle alphabet?


    Anyways, I think 3 cities is better than 4 just because of maintenance. 3 cities that all have trade routes will net you +1 commerce compared to 1 city. the 4th takes you to -2 i believe.
     

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