Important Decisions

[shaglio]

With the announcement of the upcoming Civ 7, I’ve been trying to play games of Civ 6 to get myself back in the mood of the Civilization franchise. But inevitably the same events take place that wind up ruining my mood. I’ll be chugging along, taking my turns, deciding what I want to do on my current turn and what I want to do on subsequent turns. Then it’ll happen: I click NEXT TURN and something will pop up in my face – whether it’s time to choose my Pantheon, I need to replace an expired Policy Card, I’ve entered a Dark/Normal/Golden Age, the World Congress is in session, I unlocked a new Governor point, or an Emergency has been declared - I know my response is supposed to be, “Cool! An important decision for me to make,” but, instead, my reaction is, “Ugh, leave me alone, I’m trying to play the game.” For me, these supposedly “important decisions” are so bland and banal that they ultimately become just disruptive and annoying to my gaming experience.

Maybe it’s just me; maybe the Civilization franchise and I are just growing apart and it’s time we went our separate ways. Or maybe there are others out there who feel the same way I do. Maybe I wouldn’t get so bothered by these parts of the game if the decisions had a little more impact for me. Maybe Civ 7 should tone down the interruptions and let me simply take my One More Turn without so many stoppages. Anyway, I thought I’d just get this off my chest (perhaps it’ll be therapeutic for me) and hopefully I can enjoy Civ 7 when it comes out.

 

[Blue whale]

Try disabling expansions if pop ups are that annoying for you. It’s not like civ 7 will have all the mechanics of of the last game

 

[Leyrann]

Well, you certainly shouldn't try Civ 1-4 then, where every single city build completion is a popup.

 

[Arent11]

With the announcement of the upcoming Civ 7, I’ve been trying to play games of Civ 6 to get myself back in the mood of the Civilization franchise. But inevitably the same events take place that wind up ruining my mood. I’ll be chugging along, taking my turns, deciding what I want to do on my current turn and what I want to do on subsequent turns. Then it’ll happen: I click NEXT TURN and something will pop up in my face – whether it’s time to choose my Pantheon, I need to replace an expired Policy Card, I’ve entered a Dark/Normal/Golden Age, the World Congress is in session, I unlocked a new Governor point, or an Emergency has been declared - I know my response is supposed to be, “Cool! An important decision for me to make,” but, instead, my reaction is, “Ugh, leave me alone, I’m trying to play the game.” For me, these supposedly “important decisions” are so bland and banal that they ultimately become just disruptive and annoying to my gaming experience.

Maybe it’s just me; maybe the Civilization franchise and I are just growing apart and it’s time we went our separate ways. Or maybe there are others out there who feel the same way I do. Maybe I wouldn’t get so bothered by these parts of the game if the decisions had a little more impact for me. Maybe Civ 7 should tone down the interruptions and let me simply take my One More Turn without so many stoppages. Anyway, I thought I’d just get this off my chest (perhaps it’ll be therapeutic for me) and hopefully I can enjoy Civ 7 when it comes out.

The problem is that there are too many game mechanics you need to actively ignore to have fun.

I mean, I'm running an empire here, I want to explore, invade, build, discover. I don't want to set the destination of every single trader or play a puzzle game for theming bonuses in a museum.

The worst is in multiplayer the world Congress. You can't even opt out & say you're not joining the world congress. Why not? In the real world there are countries boycotting the UN.

 

[Quintillus]

Well, not all of them, and not all the time. But sometimes, yes. A late-game governor promotion? I've been known to ignore it. Having to choose a Pantheon? I kind of miss the Civ IV model of just getting Judaism when I discover Monotheism, choosing beliefs and so forth definitely interrupts the flow of the game. Replacing policy cards? I wish there was an express option of "choose whichever new policy card is basically the replacement for this one", since there (almost?) always is a new one that's the same thing but better.

And at least to me, it's not pop-ups. I love pop-ups in Civ III/IV. It's these "takes some time to configure but doesn't really seem important" decisions that interrupt the flow.

Another nice feature in VII would be an ability to automatically automate all of your cities (perhaps with exceptions) in terms of what they build next. By the end game I'm often just waiting for my spaceship to travel or my tourism to increase, and don't really care what the cities build, it's just 15 more turns of waiting. The decisions on what to build next are important in the early game, but can become inconsequential by the end.

 

[AffineConstant]

Well, not all of them, and not all the time. But sometimes, yes. A late-game governor promotion? I've been known to ignore it. Having to choose a Pantheon? I kind of miss the Civ IV model of just getting Judaism when I discover Monotheism, choosing beliefs and so forth definitely interrupts the flow of the game. Replacing policy cards? I wish there was an express option of "choose whichever new policy card is basically the replacement for this one", since there (almost?) always is a new one that's the same thing but better.

And at least to me, it's not pop-ups. I love pop-ups in Civ III/IV. It's these "takes some time to configure but doesn't really seem important" decisions that interrupt the flow.

Another nice feature in VII would be an ability to automatically automate all of your cities (perhaps with exceptions) in terms of what they build next. By the end game I'm often just waiting for my spaceship to travel or my tourism to increase, and don't really care what the cities build, it's just 15 more turns of waiting. The decisions on what to build next are important in the early game, but can become inconsequential by the end.

I can't double like a post, but I can quote and say "yes please, I'd love to see Civ VII streamline out the busywork VI had". Choosing a trade route once is fine, choosing it every X turns when it "runs out" is annoying. Looking at your policy cards ever single time you get a new culture because maybe you should swap it out now feels like busywork, etc.

 

[Arent11]

Well, not all of them, and not all the time. But sometimes, yes. A late-game governor promotion? I've been known to ignore it. Having to choose a Pantheon? I kind of miss the Civ IV model of just getting Judaism when I discover Monotheism, choosing beliefs and so forth definitely interrupts the flow of the game. Replacing policy cards? I wish there was an express option of "choose whichever new policy card is basically the replacement for this one", since there (almost?) always is a new one that's the same thing but better.

And at least to me, it's not pop-ups. I love pop-ups in Civ III/IV. It's these "takes some time to configure but doesn't really seem important" decisions that interrupt the flow.

Another nice feature in VII would be an ability to automatically automate all of your cities (perhaps with exceptions) in terms of what they build next. By the end game I'm often just waiting for my spaceship to travel or my tourism to increase, and don't really care what the cities build, it's just 15 more turns of waiting. The decisions on what to build next are important in the early game, but can become inconsequential by the end.

The point is that many of these decisions seem inconsequential.

This already starts with world wonders. In Alpha Centauri I had world wonders that made me immune to espionage, gave every city a city wall or gave all units veterancy etc. It felt meaningful to rush build or lose these wonders.

The governments had a huge impact, they transformed the entire game. Some gave you huge boosts to economy but severely crippled your military & exploration. Others granted you huge bonuses to research but crippled espionage defense. Still others allowed you to capture "barbarians" (In AC alien life).

All of these decisions felt meaningful and if done wrong could seriously backfire.

 

[shaglio]

Well, not all of them, and not all the time. But sometimes, yes. A late-game governor promotion? I've been known to ignore it. Having to choose a Pantheon? I kind of miss the Civ IV model of just getting Judaism when I discover Monotheism, choosing beliefs and so forth definitely interrupts the flow of the game. Replacing policy cards? I wish there was an express option of "choose whichever new policy card is basically the replacement for this one", since there (almost?) always is a new one that's the same thing but better.

And at least to me, it's not pop-ups. I love pop-ups in Civ III/IV. It's these "takes some time to configure but doesn't really seem important" decisions that interrupt the flow.

Another nice feature in VII would be an ability to automatically automate all of your cities (perhaps with exceptions) in terms of what they build next. By the end game I'm often just waiting for my spaceship to travel or my tourism to increase, and don't really care what the cities build, it's just 15 more turns of waiting. The decisions on what to build next are important in the early game, but can become inconsequential by the end.

Another one that just came to me is when you unlock a new government civic. It's not a problem with the Tier 1 governments since they're all unlocked at once with Political Philosophy. But with the later ones, the game will alert you that a new government is unlocked, but then it forces you to go to the View Governments screen and select a new government (or close out of the screen) whether you want to change your government or not. It's not a major issue, but it IS extra tedious clicks at a time when you're just trying to close out a victory and get the game over with.

 

[bssth]

All of these claims can be summarized in one single statement: too much micromanagement. Usually such problems are solved by mods, but here we are talking about the core mechanics of the game, which are difficult for modders to deal with. Perhaps the next Civ will consider all of this

 

[mitsho]

Sure, fewer decisions are great. Some need to vanish with the advancement of the ages for example. Others just don't need to be a popup, but can come when you want to do them before hitting "next turn". A prime example is diplomacy - i hate those popups that draw you away from the map for nothing, sometimes just an insult. Diplomacy is a system where they can reduce the click-count heavily. They should do it.

 

[kaspergm]

Another one that just came to me is when you unlock a new government civic. It's not a problem with the Tier 1 governments since they're all unlocked at once with Political Philosophy. But with the later ones, the game will alert you that a new government is unlocked, but then it forces you to go to the View Governments screen and select a new government (or close out of the screen) whether you want to change your government or not. It's not a major issue, but it IS extra tedious clicks at a time when you're just trying to close out a victory and get the game over with.

I get your point here, but on the other hand, there are some instances where I have the opposite problem. Maybe it's just me, but I always forget to swap out my policy cards when I have the opportunity - and yes, it's probably a sign of pop-up fatigue, but whenever I unlock a new civic, I just close the pop-up window, and only on the next turn realize I was supposed to swap in/out this or that policy card. If I had a dime for every time I've had to reload the game because of that, I could ... definitely buy an ice cream cone. Anyway, maybe that's a sign of the policy card system being horrible micro-management as well as anything.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

People complain long and loud about Micromanagement, here and elsewhere, but that's not really what we are complaining about.

What bugs us all is micromanagement when there is no corresponding Bonus from micromanaging.

Have to renew Trade Routes, swap out expired Policies, respond to the latest wave of Missionaries? None of those actually get you anything, they just Maintain the Status Quo you already established - you're just Treading Water, working up a sweat to stay in place.

Optional Micromanagement is what we really want: the Option to micro things we are interested in, or that make a difference in the specific game we are playing at the moment, and On Our Terms regard any part of the game as Trivia to be largely ignored.

And that means the Option to Automate just about everything in the game so we can pick and choose what the game bothers us with - up to a point, which may be indicated when the game informs you that your steadily-expanding peaceful Empire is now the object of multiple Declarations of War, condemnation by the World Congress, and several volcanoes just blew away eight Districts.

One More Turn, indeed . . .

 

[Scrabbler]

One of my hopes for Civ 7 is limited actions, similar to the orders system in Soren Johnson’s Old World. This would mean that you have a maximum number of things you can do in a turn - not meant to be too punishing but making you think carefully about what is most important on a given turn.

For example, actions could be spent on moving military units (costs double when exploring and revealing the fog of war), making a tile improvement, changing government or policies, etc. Actions could also be used for proposing trade deals to prevent players micromanaging this aspect.

 

[GeneralZIft]

Instead of constant diplomacy popups, they should bring back some legacy systems.

I mean, remember the (Famous Person)'s List of Wealthiest Civilisations?

Now this gets information across while being immersive and not too in your face.

My suggestion is to have your advisor report all the Diplomacy stuff you usually get in the sidebar, but in terms of some kind of single popup every 20 turns or something.

---

My liege, the following information has been reported by our trade routes:

Spain has constructed a Warrior (3 turns ago)
Spain is now trading with France (5 turns ago)
Russia is constructing The Pyramids (12 turns ago)

Our embassy in France reports:
"Immense wealth in treasuries; unguarded cities with no walls"

---

Takes the mini popups that are easily missed in the corner in Civ6, combined with that stuff from Civ5, just in general, would make a good break from the action.

Information in a medium digestible chunk better than too little too frequent

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

One of my hopes for Civ 7 is limited actions, similar to the orders system in Soren Johnson’s Old World. This would mean that you have a maximum number of things you can do in a turn - not meant to be too punishing but making you think carefully about what is most important on a given turn.

For example, actions could be spent on moving military units (costs double when exploring and revealing the fog of war), making a tile improvement, changing government or policies, etc. Actions could also be used for proposing trade deals to prevent players micromanaging this aspect.

The problems with the orders system are two:

1. It is an artificial gamey 'solution' to the 'problem' of not wanting to let the gamer do whatever needs to be done.

2. Even if you agree with that Annoyance (and I Fully Admit it is just my opinion) there is the problem that Old World's system is designed for a game that encompasses One Era and largely One Type of government - dynastic monarchy. To use in Civ, the system would have to be expanded in range and scope to encompass 6 - 8 Eras and a wide variety of governments, including modern bureaucratic systems that can do many things at once, and have Non-Governmental entities like Corporations that, in certain areas, can do things without input from the government. Another problem is modeling the Orders available from various types of military systems and bureaucracies, and Economic ones, and Religious ones, and diplomatic ones, and general Civ Maintenance ones (represented usually by the government type, but that rarely covers everything) and how the actions of Great People are constrained or ignored by the Orders system. And in the end, how that system can be expanded enough to cover both a single city with maybe 4 - 5 units in 3700 BCE and a continent-wide Empire with 20+ cities and 75+ units ranging from Armies to Workers in 1960 CE.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The problems with the orders system are two:

1. It is an artificial gamey 'solution' to the 'problem' of not wanting to let the gamer do whatever needs to be done.

2. Even if you agree with that Annoyance (and I Fully Admit it is just my opinion) there is the problem that Old World's system is designed for a game that encompasses One Era and largely One Type of government - dynastic monarchy. To use in Civ, the system would have to be expanded in range and scope to encompass 6 - 8 Eras and a wide variety of governments, including modern bureaucratic systems that can do many things at once, and have Non-Governmental entities like Corporations that, in certain areas, can do things without input from the government. Another problem is modeling the Orders available from various types of military systems and bureaucracies, and Economic ones, and Religious ones, and diplomatic ones, and general Civ Maintenance ones (represented usually by the government type, but that rarely covers everything) and how the actions of Great People are constrained or ignored by the Orders system. And in the end, how that system can be expanded enough to cover both a single city with maybe 4 - 5 units in 3700 BCE and a continent-wide Empire with 20+ cities and 75+ units ranging from Armies to Workers in 1960 CE.

I don't view a limited order system as being "gamey". Limitations on command-and-control can be both immersive and fun, not to mention create a better simulation of growing a civilization. Games at their core are about the allocation of scarce resources, and it would be very thematic for the ruler of an empire (even an immortal one) to have to decide what part of the empire's operations to get personally involved with each turn. Some things should be "freebies" - moving units inside your borders, for example. Anything associated with expanding or improving your empire, though, would, I think, be better limited so you're forced to prioritize and focus on what's most important.

In such a system, progression through the ages could and should increase your command-and-control abilities. There's no reason why it couldn't smoothly scale from a Bronze Age single city to a Mordern Age 20-city nation. Being forced to invest in the administration of your empire in order to manage expansion could also be part of a better system to increase the challenge of expansion-by-conquest than Civ 5's national projects or Civ 6's loyalty. More importantly, it would open up a lot of game play space, like making Governor appointments, policy choices, etc. become something that matters.

 

[GeneralZIft]

I don't view a limited order system as being "gamey". Limitations on command-and-control can be both immersive and fun, not to mention create a better simulation of growing a civilization. Games at their core are about the allocation of scarce resources, and it would be very thematic for the ruler of an empire (even an immortal one) to have to decide what part of the empire's operations to get personally involved with each turn. Some things should be "freebies" - moving units inside your borders, for example. Anything associated with expanding or improving your empire, though, would, I think, be better limited so you're forced to prioritize and focus on what's most important.

In such a system, progression through the ages could and should increase your command-and-control abilities. There's no reason why it couldn't smoothly scale from a Bronze Age single city to a Mordern Age 20-city nation. Being forced to invest in the administration of your empire in order to manage expansion could also be part of a better system to increase the challenge of expansion-by-conquest than Civ 5's national projects or Civ 6's loyalty. More importantly, it would open up a lot of game play space, like making Governor appointments, policy choices, etc. become something that matters.

The game is already limited by many of these factors and resources. Everything costs production or gold, and you allocate your production or gold.
You allocate science. Your orders to build and improve are limited by your Builders / Workers, the upkeep for those units, and the time it takes for them to build the improvements.
Don't forget, you're also limited by your infrastructure (roads) to determine how quickly you can improve stuff.

I would agree with you on this: it would make for more interesting gameplay if the Governors and Policy systems (or equivalent Civ7 systems) had to work against each other
(So you can Either allocate Governors, OR change Policies)

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

In such a system, progression through the ages could and should increase your command-and-control abilities. There's no reason why it couldn't smoothly scale from a Bronze Age single city to a Mordern Age 20-city nation. Being forced to invest in the administration of your empire in order to manage expansion could also be part of a better system to increase the challenge of expansion-by-conquest than Civ 5's national projects or Civ 6's loyalty. More importantly, it would open up a lot of game play space, like making Governor appointments, policy choices, etc. become something that matters.

Except that it shouldn't "smoothly scale" because the advances that led to better Command and Control, C3, more efficient management of Empire, etc weren't smoothly acquired and accepted.​

​

Technologies like Bureaucracy, Governments like Monarchy or Republic, educated government/military/civilian administrators - there are a host of technological, cultural, social, and political events/effects that could affect your Orders - or lack of them.​

​

I agree that properly implemented, it could be a better system to show the real problems of 'empire management' in the late game, but it would require a huge investment in development for all the potential modifiers and a large investment in testing and balancing to keep it from becoming hugely Unbalanced or Unbalancable by the human player.​

​

And you could probably get the same Limiting Large Empires effects with less explicit methods like an overall efficency/Administration factor that adds limitations to your cities and armies/units if you let it grow.​

 

[Patine]

One of my hopes for Civ 7 is limited actions, similar to the orders system in Soren Johnson’s Old World. This would mean that you have a maximum number of things you can do in a turn - not meant to be too punishing but making you think carefully about what is most important on a given turn.

For example, actions could be spent on moving military units (costs double when exploring and revealing the fog of war), making a tile improvement, changing government or policies, etc. Actions could also be used for proposing trade deals to prevent players micromanaging this aspect.

This was a mechanic type - artificially limiting a player's ability to CHOOSE to miromanage - which was proudly advertised as a big feature for MoO3, which actually turned me off of buying it when I had so enjoyed MoO2.

 

[The_goggles_do_nothing]

I get your point here, but on the other hand, there are some instances where I have the opposite problem. Maybe it's just me, but I always forget to swap out my policy cards when I have the opportunity - and yes, it's probably a sign of pop-up fatigue, but whenever I unlock a new civic, I just close the pop-up window, and only on the next turn realize I was supposed to swap in/out this or that policy card. If I had a dime for every time I've had to reload the game because of that, I could ... definitely buy an ice cream cone. Anyway, maybe that's a sign of the policy card system being horrible micro-management as well as anything.

Civ 6 needs integration between map pins, build queues and the policy screen. Even with policy screen mods there is still a lot for the player needs to remember when choosing.