Important Info on Warmongering and Diplomacy!

[Lyoncet]

In the current warmongering thread, isau brought up a really important point that IMO needs its own thread. Basically, the hypothesis is that the relationship modifiers you see on the diplomacy screens aren't the Civ IV-style static bonuses and penalties. Instead, they represent a per-turn change in your standing.

Here's the post in full:

I have been looking at this closely and it is actually not quite the case that the AI hates you forever for war. At least not directly.

What appears to be the case is there is a hidden number that represents your relationship with the civ. Any + - you see on screen is the change per turn. So if it's -16 that means you are losing 16 influence per turn. This is totally different from Civ 4 or Civ 5 and it was only after a ton of scratching my head that I figured it out. The diplo screen offers no clues that this is how it works.

Warmonger penalties degrade at a rate of 1 per turn. So -16 (for example) becomes -15 and then -14 so on. But the way you need to think of it is like a Damage Over Time spell in an RPG. It's doing damage to your invisible hit point total in the background.

Now here's some hilarious numbers. The war monger penalties tend to come in multiples of 4 (4, 8, 16, 24, etc). But if I'm right about the invisible "hit point" system, an increase from 8 to 16 is the difference between 36 points of damage and 136. LOL. So that would kill any relationship and it's no wonder civs are struggling. I don't think they realized this when they coded it...

BTW sending the civs gifts appears to work the opposite way, like a Heal Over Time spell. The bonus of the gift decays quickly from the diplo screen. But if you give to Ghandi (for example) and get a +10 modifier, decaying at a rate of 2 per turn, you heal 10+8+6+4+2 diplomacy with him, for a total of +30. Do that a few times and he'll eventually love you (space out the gifts so you get the full +10 with each gift).

Further, Ryika has taken a look at the code and found the following:

I did take a look at the game files, and what I see does seem to support those assumptions.
Looking at the DiplomaticActions and DiplomaticStates-Tables makes it seem as if there's "costs" and "worths" attached to most diplomatic Interactions.

A delegation for example has a cost of 25 attached to it, which would fit rather well with those numbers, and could also act as an explanation for why AIs so often decline them, especially on higher difficulties.

I didn't verify if that's really how it works and if it's really part of the same system, but it does seem to fit into that picture very well. But again, this shouldn't be seen as gospel either.

I wanted to bring it up in its own thread since the original post was kind of glossed over, and it's super important to how we understand and conduct diplomacy in this game. It's probably one of the biggest diplomatic changes in Civ VI, and it's never been mentioned in-game or by the developers as far as I know.

That has huge implications for playing to offset warmonger penalties. Investing early in those positive modifiers could go a long ways towards keeping the accumulating warmonger penalty from ruining your day.

Anyways, the more you know!

 

[Stringer1313]

This is a hugely important, thank you. Would be nice if they made this clear in UI.

 

[Matte979]

This is what I found, HUGE change on how it works. I like it, The UI needs to explain this and help manage this.

This allows you to repair damage overtime as the penalty goes away, way better than CIV 5s all game penalty.

 

[kingchris20]

Absolutely awesome info here!

Maybe diplomatic relations will be less frustrating now

 

[Stringer1313]

On the other hand, if you leave a small negative net modifier (say, -1) fester for hundreds of turns, does that eventually create a hole that is too deep to dig out of?

 

[Krajzen]

It's idiotic from Firaxis side to talk so much about diplomacy and its transparency and then hide so basic thing so it is barely discovered and figured out few days after official release... with most of players don't understanding the mechanic at all.

 

[Lyoncet]

This is what I found, HUGE change on how it works. I like it, The UI needs to explain this and help manage this.

You can say that again! This is so important that never communicating it is a huge oversight.

Go tell your friends! Spread the word!

 

[Sagax]

This allows you to repair damage overtime as the penalty goes away, way better than CIV 5s all game penalty.

Unless you got larger negative modifiers right off the bat.

This system means that your relations are determined mostly by the first big interactions with AI, and they can potentially snowball out of control in either direction.

This also means that warmonger penalties with neutral-to-unfriendly civs are SO much harder to neutralize. Good luck scraping those tiny positive modifiers from trade or even nice ones from agenda approvals when warmongering sets you at least 16 points into negative each turn. Also add in the manchild behavior of certain AIs caused by their agenda, and good luck befriending anyone who didn't like you from the beginning due to a lucky agenda match.

The system itself is fine, but once again, the numbers are way off to make it work.

 

[Lyoncet]

I've posted this over on the Civ Reddit page as well, if people would like to comment and get it more visibility. Linkey.

 

[Ryika]

Not sure why people are so willing to accept this as correct and spread it as if it were confirmed information.

How did he even come to that conclusion? What has he done to verify his guesses? Other than saying that he's been "looking at this closely" he doesn't give any source.

 

[Lyoncet]

Not sure why people are so willing to accept this as correct and spread it as if it were confirmed information.

How did he even come to that conclusion? What has he done to verify his guesses? Other than saying that he's been "looking at this closely" he doesn't give any source.

True, but it meshes precisely with what I've experienced. I've had (off the top of my head) +7, +7, +5, +3, +2, -2 with Trajan, and it added up to "unfriendly." I checked the next turn to make sure it didn't need to process the turn. Still unfriendly. But I made steady progress towards friendly without anything else changing, and eventually I managed to DoF and ally with him.

Even if this isn't 100% accurate, on an experiential level, it plays out so close (and the Civ IV "tally the numbers" system is so far off) that I think it's fair game.

 

[Mustakrakish]

Interesting... how very interesting. Waiting for a mod that puts those numbers into view now.

 

[Ryika]

True, but it meshes precisely with what I've experienced. I've had (off the top of my head) +7, +7, +5, +3, +2, -2 with Trajan, and it added up to "unfriendly." I checked the next turn to make sure it didn't need to process the turn. Still unfriendly. But I made steady progress towards friendly without anything else changing, and eventually got him all the way up to ally.

Or, alternatively, there is just a delay between changes of relationship levels to not make the AI look like they're bipolar. I'm just baffled by the fact that "This guy made an informed guess" became: "Heeeey! Important breakthrough!"

Anyway. ^^

I did take a look at the game files, and what I see does seem to support those assumptions.
Looking at the DiplomaticActions and DiplomaticStates-Tables makes it seem as if there's "costs" and "worths" attached to most diplomatic Interactions.

A delegation for example has a cost of 25 attached to it, which would fit rather well with those numbers, and could also act as an explanation for why AIs so often decline them, especially on higher difficulties.
/edit: Woops, I'm dumb. Those in the DiplomaticActions-table (including the example I gave) are of course gold costs. Those in the DiplomaticStates-Table do however might still support the assumptions.

I didn't verify if that's really how it works and if it's really part of the same system, but it does seem to fit into that picture very well. But again, this shouldn't be seen as gospel either.

 

[Lyoncet]

Or, alternatively, there is just a delay between changes of relationship levels to not make the AI look like they're bipolar. I'm just baffled by the fact that "This guy made an informed guess" became: "Heeeey! Important breakthrough!"

Anyway. ^^

I did take a look at the game files, and what I see does seem to support those assumptions.
Looking at the DiplomaticActions and DiplomaticStates-Tables makes it seem as if there's "costs" and "worths" attached to most diplomatic Interactions.

A delegation for example has a cost of 25 attached to it, which would fit rather well with those numbers, and could also act as an explanation for why AIs so often decline them, especially on higher difficulties.

I didn't verify if that's really how it works and if it's really part of the same system, but it does seem to fit into that picture very well. But again, this shouldn't be seen as gospel either.

Thanks for doing the digging! That's a huge help - I've added it to the OP with credit where it's due.

You're completely correct that I should have caveated and/or qualified it more heavily. Easy to get caught up in the moment, you know, especially with things that a) are interesting and b) validate one's experience. Extra thanks for being civil and kind about it!

 

[Mustakrakish]

I'd also would like a 100% confirm on this, but it does seem so. I mean there's a face meter indicating your relationship and then there's the numbers we see, which often doesn't much. Like I have several modifiers (+ & -) upon meeting a civ which amounts to maybe -1 or -2 and we're neutral. then some turns later they are unfriendly while those numbers are about the same. Which confused me a lot. now it makes sense.

Now I want someone to A: make a mod putting those relationship numbers visible. We do have a meter, but I'd like to see exact numbers... I think... not sure. Well, maybe the meter is fine now that I know (we think so) how it works. BUT B: Someone needs to make a thorough guide on how exactly all of it works.

 

[isau]

I'm glad to see that post got some traction. I had posted the "Why is Ghandi Angry?" thread during my attempts to figure it out and someone had suggested I give him a gift and wait a few turns. I couldn't figure out why that would matter but I tried it and it worked. That's when I began to study the diplo screen closely.

Here's an experiment to try:

- Get into a game with Ghandi (he works well because he reacts very well to gold gifts, 100 gold = +10 modifier decaying at a rate of 2 per turn)
- Make note of his current overall mood and his list of modifiers
- Give him 100 gold. Note that his list of + - now includes a +10 for the gold gift
- Finish several turns and check on him, note how the + - for the gold gift is vanishing
- Once gold gift wears off after 5 turns, give him another
- Keep going until he's suddenly in a better mood. Note that even though the screen is showing no + - for gold gifts, he is still friendly


Another experiment:

- Load with Catherine de Medici
- When the first civ appears, check diplo window, there will often be a modifier called "First Impression" (at least on Emperor difficulty)
- If First Impression is negative (for me its often -4 or -5, I have no idea what causes it) note how after a few turns the leader goes from Neutral to Unhappy.

The First Impression mystery is still one I'm trying to figure out. It's possibly a random number devs threw in to make you work harder at diplo at higher difficulties, and to make sure each civ has a chance to aggro each other.


I'm not sure I'm 100% right about the system but it does seem to explain a lot about AI behavior. What I still don't know is if the + - values apply in full every turn, or if they are modified by other factors like era, leader quirks, etc. The screen suffers from "false clarity" making it seem like it's providing full disclosure of what's going on but hiding the most important number, your running total with the civ, behind the Unhappy/Neutral/Happy designation.

 

[isau]

BTW with delegations--if you want a civ to accept a delegation, send it to them the moment you meet them. Because of the First Impression penalty you often get, their opinion of you is already sliding negative. If you slip in that Delegation the moment you meet them, you offset it, and either reverse or slow down the slide of negative opinion. A civ sitting at -5 with you might look like it's staying steady, but in reality its getting more and more angry every turn, assuming the theory that the + - represents change per turn is correct.