Improve the Protective trait???

[Spammurabi]

This may work. The only thing I think of is that cannons were really the end of castles as fortifications (even though cannons and gunpowder just necessitated another evolution in fortification design) So maybe it’s reasonable; maybe Steel is a more reasonable obsolescence for castles. But simply pushing it back is reasonable.

Well, gunpowder wasn't necessarily the end of castles. Walled cities, yes, but castles in the form of forts were in existence even into WWII. Washington D.C. was surrounded by forts in the American Civil War, Paris had forts (concentrated on the North and East sides) during WWII, and Eben-Emael in Belgium was important (although the Germans captured it using hang-gliders).

Walls and fortifications were still used in the American Revolutionary war, for example the British fortifications around Boston.

So delaying the obsolescence of Walls and Castles can be argued to work from both a realism and gameplay standpoint.

I suspect, however, that an appropriate obsolescence tech may be easier to find in the Beyond the Sword expansion, where there should be greater stratification between the technologies between the Napoleonic Era and WWII.

 

[kristopherb]

4)first strickes
i-if a unit attacks with 75% of health the first strickes are 75% effective.
ii-if you have a stack of 1 archer and axemen so when the axemen is attacked the axemen gets the first strickes the amount depends on he amount of archerey units there is.this will make archer's more valueable in stacks and in turn protective.

i posted the above in a diferent thread.

 

[Quetzal513]

Well, gunpowder wasn't necessarily the end of castles. Walled cities, yes, but castles in the form of forts were in existence even into WWII. Washington D.C. was surrounded by forts in the American Civil War, Paris had forts (concentrated on the North and East sides) during WWII, and Eben-Emael in Belgium was important (although the Germans captured it using hang-gliders).

Walls and fortifications were still used in the American Revolutionary war, for example the British fortifications around Boston.

So delaying the obsolescence of Walls and Castles can be argued to work from both a realism and gameplay standpoint.

I suspect, however, that an appropriate obsolescence tech may be easier to find in the Beyond the Sword expansion, where there should be greater stratification between the technologies between the Napoleonic Era and WWII.

I think you're right about delaying the obsolescence of walls and castles. Historically I was simplifying in my post; I can think of other examples that you didn't mention. But I think generally gunpowder was the beginning of the end for castles, especially with cannons. Fortifications have continued to evolve to this day, although under totally different tactics. We've already discussed that improving forts would be a good idea too, and I hope it happens. I'm crossing my fingers that BtS will address several of the issues we've talked about in this thread.

 

[Watiggi]

Except archers are still crummy offensive units. Drill I + II would have been much better, I think, because it would let archers be somewhat useful outside of city walls.

Mmmm. But what happens after Longbows? Gunpowder units with Drill I & II would make for a good offensive unit.

 

[kniteowl]

I was thinking and wondered what the community's opinion if the Protective Tarit was improved by having all Protective unit have double speed healing rates,

So instead of healing 5HP a Turn on enemy Terratory, it'll be 10HP.
intead of 20HP a turn inside a city it'll be 40HP a turn and etc.
Medic III (normally has 25HP per turn no w has 50HP per turn!!!) can heal your Units in 2 TURNS!!!

it has both a Offensive and Defensive aspect to it and it's a different/unique bonus compared to the other traits.

Combine this bonus with Drills Promotions to GP units and a useful Cheap Building (Castle) Protective should be able to hold it's own.

 

[Watiggi]

I reckon that would be too strong on the offensive. Just think about what Combat IV and Combat V give - health bonuses in neutral territory and enemy territory. So it would essentially be getting that (minus the strength bonuses) right away! Maybe if it were on the defensive of something...

 

[kniteowl]

I reckon that would be too strong on the offensive. Just think about what Combat IV and Combat V give - health bonuses in neutral territory and enemy territory. So it would essentially be getting that (minus the strength bonuses) right away! Maybe if it were on the defensive of something...

I went back to read the Healing Units strategy article and double healing rate seems a tad overpowered.

How About all Protective units heal an Additional 5HP "Anywhere" (I Consider an offensive war as Protective, IF the Civ in that Attacked you refuses for Peace especially if you're backwards and have nothing to offer for Peace.)

It'd be half the strength of Combat IV and V as they allow you to heal an additional 10HP.

And when you compare it to Charismatic, an extra 5HP isn't that much, I just want the trait to be at competitive besides healing isn't any useful if you kill the Protective units lol.

A bit off-topic

I was also thinking Half price upgrade Cost for Imperialistic, would be very useful and kind of indirectly showing that their economically dominant, as you're saving Cash for other things or double up on upgrades.

 

[yatta77]

(English isn't my first language, sorry, I hope it isn't too bad )
:: I play (SP) Emperoror level or harder, not really a war guy, so I need to fight quite often some defensive wars. I like Protective Leaders promotions to archery units, and I think is good enough also before GunPowder: mixing CGIII longbow for first defense and Drill III/IV Crossbow/ChoNuKu (did I spell it right? ?) for counter attack is a very powerful defense to your cities, and it "costs" only 5 to 10xp with the free promotions you get from the trait. And those units keep their promotions when they upgrade to granateer or rifleman

:: Said that, _maybe_ a +10% _only defensive_ bonus to all your units _in your cultural borders_ could be a fair help to defend better your cottages and resource tiles (fortifying there some units) too. But nothing more than that, an attack bonus would be unbalanced in my opinion, beside not reflecting the "defensive" definition of the trait.

:: What defensive leaders really needs to me it's a good half production price building. I like the idea of making the castle better, but I think the best would be half production price Aqueduct (not sure about the spelling): aqueduct is a very useful building (al least on high levels) which no trait can now build half production price; and also it gets along whit the Defensive trait, since it gives a health bonus you can rely on also when your resources have been pillaged by enemies, which reflects the ability to the defensive empires to "resist" to the invasion, reducing the lost of population in the cities when enemies are in your fat cross.
That's easy to add, doesn't change any game strategy, and gives that little boost the trait needs. The chinese leader Pro+Ind that way would be a really good one to play with.

_This is, of course, just my opinion_. Defensive is not such a bad trait, it just needs a good building; the worst trait in Warlord, to me, is whitout doubt Imperialistic. Btw: good discussion topic!

 

[Kadasbrass]

Sorry if someone already suggested this, didn't read whole thing yet. But I always felt city garrison promotion should give bonus while defending cottages and such. That would fix the protective trait rigth there

 

[Rusty Edge]

I like the idea of castles lasting until canons rather than just gunpowder.

I would suggest that they could be upgraded to jails for free when they become obsolete in Protective.

 

[yatta77]

Sorry if someone already suggested this, didn't read whole thing yet. But I always felt city garrison promotion should give bonus while defending cottages and such. That would fix the protective trait rigth there

I thought about that before, and I agree with you as long as the bonus is valid only inside your cultural borders. If a unit it trained to garrison your cities, why shouldn't it be equally able to garrison your cottages or towns?
Or even mines, watermills, vineries, or more generally all your improved lands?
I would except forests (beside there's already a +50% bonus) and not improved lands: the unit must have something to garrison to get the bonus.
The choice would be between "only cottages -> town" (in your cultural borders) and "all the improved tiles" (in your cultural borders).
But i don't know about balance, it has to be tested: a CGIII archer fortified on an improved hill would have +75%(CG) +25%(hill) +25%(archer on hill) +25% (fortify) = 150% defensive bonus! Probably the CG bonus should be full effective in your cities, and 1/2 effective in your improved tiles? Whatever, it would surely make the pillaging strategy harder to use, changing some balances... but this might also be good!

EDIT: an idea to balance the new bonus to CG promotions could be this.
CGI: +20% city defense
CGII: +25% city defense; +10% defense in improved tiles inside your cultural borders
CGIII: +30% city defense; +15% defense in improved tiles inside your cultural borders
hope my english is understandable

 

[ac196nataku]

I like the idea of castles lasting until canons rather than just gunpowder.

I would suggest that they could be upgraded to jails for free when they become obsolete in Protective.

Castles obsolete at Rifling which I usually get much later than Scientific Method (cannons).

 

[Rusty Edge]

Castles obsolete at Rifling which I usually get much later than Scientific Method (cannons).

Then again I could be confused.

Perhaps you're running vanilla or something?

I was thinking that all gunpowder units were immune to castle defensive bonuses, and that the tech tree progression was something like -

Gunpowder (musketmen)
Chemistry (Grenadiers)
Steel - (cannons )


I've mostly built castles to boost my economy, and have rarely used them as a defender. So, I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

 

[Watiggi]

Sorry if someone already suggested this, didn't read whole thing yet. But I always felt city garrison promotion should give bonus while defending cottages and such. That would fix the protective trait rigth there

Nice train of thought. Here's a small variation to it though:

Protective could give a free strength bonus to units inside their own cultural borders. This way they can effectively fight in their own territory rather than just be resilient clay targets on the defensive (which a defensive only bonus would give).

This would allow the Protective leader to defend the improvements and also attack stacks inside their borders with the bonus. The bonus wont be effective outside their borders, so it wont help a conqueror. I think the ability to fight well in your own territory is what Protective should reflect rather than just defend well.

Protective:
Drill I for Archery and Gunpowder units.
+20% strength bonus to all units inside cultural borders.
+100% production to Walls
+100% production to Castle

The free Drill I would give it access to the other promotions in much the same way that Aggressive does with Combat I. I can see the free Drill promotion would help them on the offensive, but I think it would be in an ok way.

 

[dalessi12]

(English isn't my first language, sorry, I hope it isn't too bad )
:: I play (SP) Emperoror level or harder, not really a war guy, so I need to fight quite often some defensive wars. I like Protective Leaders promotions to archery units, and I think is good enough also before GunPowder: mixing CGIII longbow for first defense and Drill III/IV Crossbow/ChoNuKu (did I spell it right? ?) for counter attack is a very powerful defense to your cities, and it "costs" only 5 to 10xp with the free promotions you get from the trait. And those units keep their promotions when they upgrade to granateer or rifleman

:: Said that, _maybe_ a +10% _only defensive_ bonus to all your units _in your cultural borders_ could be a fair help to defend better your cottages and resource tiles (fortifying there some units) too. But nothing more than that, an attack bonus would be unbalanced in my opinion, beside not reflecting the "defensive" definition of the trait.

:: What defensive leaders really needs to me it's a good half production price building. I like the idea of making the castle better, but I think the best would be half production price Aqueduct (not sure about the spelling): aqueduct is a very useful building (al least on high levels) which no trait can now build half production price; and also it gets along whit the Defensive trait, since it gives a health bonus you can rely on also when your resources have been pillaged by enemies, which reflects the ability to the defensive empires to "resist" to the invasion, reducing the lost of population in the cities when enemies are in your fat cross.
That's easy to add, doesn't change any game strategy, and gives that little boost the trait needs. The chinese leader Pro+Ind that way would be a really good one to play with.

_This is, of course, just my opinion_. Defensive is not such a bad trait, it just needs a good building; the worst trait in Warlord, to me, is whitout doubt Imperialistic. Btw: good discussion topic!

Very well said post. I especially like your suggestion and reasoning about the half-priced aqueduct; it is easy to change, can be justified, and isn't a game-breaker.

And your English is easily understood

 

[kniteowl]

_This is, of course, just my opinion_. Defensive is not such a bad trait, it just needs a good building; the worst trait in Warlord, to me, is whitout doubt Imperialistic. Btw: good discussion topic!

If you're interested here's the Improve the Imperialist trait Thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=192986&highlight=Suggestion

The Idea of giving a free bonus (eg - +10% or +20%) for all Protective units within Cultural boarders is alright at representing Protective, but it just seems WAY too similar to aggressive except it's been nerfed, I'd prefer to give Protective a unique bonus different to the other Military Traits.

The Idea of Improving the CG Promotion is quite interesting, Except I'd like to take a step further and create an entirely new promotion (the name of the Promotion is a Working in Progress) Cultural Defender

CD1 - +10% strength & +10% vs Melee
CD2 - +10% strength & +10% vs Mounted
CD3 - +10% strength & +10% vs Gunpowder
CD4 - +10% strength & + 1 Movement

(Note these modifiers only work within cultural Boarders)

and I replace the the Free CG1 with Free CD1 for Protective leaders. Now you have two Protective type Promotions, 1 focus on city Defending the other general Empire defending, CD Promotions do work inside a City but compared to CG it's weaker but it's more versatile & fexible.

I'm not sure if this promotion would make CG totally unused and useless or whether my numbers give this promotion an over/under powered effect but it would make the game more interesting with Protective.

Btw ONLY Archery and Gunpowder Units can receive these Promotions

 

[Watiggi]

The Idea of giving a free bonus (eg - +10% or +20%) for all Protective units within Cultural boarders is alright at representing Protective, but it just seems WAY too similar to aggressive except it's been nerfed, I'd prefer to give Protective a unique bonus different to the other Military Traits.

Good point. I guess in that context, a definite +20% strength increase would make it step over an Aggressive leaders attack, balancing it more. Also, the +20% would be for all units, so Catapults would get it and thus be strength 6 rather than 5 when within cultural borders. Also, a strength 6 cat would generate more collateral damage, giving it a bonus there too when taking out attacking stacks.

The Idea of Improving the CG Promotion is quite interesting, Except I'd like to take a step further and create an entirely new promotion (the name of the Promotion is a Working in Progress) Cultural Defender

CD1 - +10% strength & +10% vs Melee
CD2 - +10% strength & +10% vs Mounted
CD3 - +10% strength & +10% vs Gunpowder
CD4 - +10% strength & + 1 Movement

(Note these modifiers only work within cultural Boarders)

and I replace the the Free CG1 with Free CD1 for Protective leaders. Now you have two Protective type Promotions, 1 focus on city Defending the other general Empire defending, CD Promotions do work inside a City but compared to CG it's weaker but it's more versatile & fexible.

I'm not sure if this promotion would make CG totally unused and useless or whether my numbers give this promotion an over/under powered effect but it would make the game more interesting with Protective.

Btw ONLY Archery and Gunpowder Units can receive these Promotions

This idea is cool

 

[yatta77]

Uhm... I, of course, respect your points of wiew. But in my opinion you're giving the Protective too much extra combat bonus.

1. I probably value Protective more than you do, but it doesn't seems to me a weak trait. It is not worst than agressive, in terms of free promotions (remember that there's 2 promotions, Drill I also is there). In SP high level game, or MP with strong opponents, Protective enemies gets remerkable benefits from the trait promotions. In my opinion what's really missing to the trait it is a half price useful building.

2. An attacking bonus (added to the Drill I bonus), also if limitated to the cultural borders, is too much, too similar to the aggressive trait Combat I bonus, and I don't think it reflects the "Defensive" idea of the trait. Defensive shold be better defending towns or improvments (fortyfing units there), not attacking to retake them.

3. In my opinion, when there's to change, and there's two options to chose between, it is often a good choice to chose the simpler one, and the one changes the less what's already working in a balanced way. I personally would prefer an improved CG promotion line (which helps defending also imporved tiles, not just cities) or a "forfait bonus" free promotion (which gives a little defensive help to the units inside the cultural border), better than a whole brand new promotion line.

My personal best choice to improve Protective is (as better explained some posts above) one of this two (the choice A is my favourite):

A.
* 1/2 price aqueduct
* change the CG promotion line as follow:
CGI: +20% city defense
CGII: +25% city defense; +10% defense in improved tiles inside your cultural borders
CGIII: +30% city defense; +15% defense in improved tiles inside your cultural borders

B.
* 1/2 price aqueduct
* +10% defensive bonus inside the cultural borders to all (or some types of) units (siege and armored probably shouldn't have it). This could be done with a free promotion (could be called "cultural defender") to the unit types choosed.

@kniteowl: I'll check the Imperialist trait thread

 

[yatta77]

Very well said post. I especially like your suggestion and reasoning about the half-priced aqueduct; it is easy to change, can be justified, and isn't a game-breaker.

And your English is easily understood

Thanks.

 

[kniteowl]

Uhm... I, of course, respect your points of wiew. But in my opinion you're giving the Protective too much extra combat bonus.

1. I probably value Protective more than you do, but it doesn't seems to me a weak trait. It is not worst than agressive, in terms of free promotions (remember that there's 2 promotions, Drill I also is there). In SP high level game, or MP with strong opponents, Protective enemies gets remerkable benefits from the trait promotions. In my opinion what's really missing to the trait it is a half price useful building.

2. An attacking bonus (added to the Drill I bonus), also if limitated to the cultural borders, is too much, too similar to the aggressive trait Combat I bonus, and I don't think it reflects the "Defensive" idea of the trait. Defensive shold be better defending towns or improvments (fortyfing units there), not attacking to retake them.

3. In my opinion, when there's to change, and there's two options to chose between, it is often a good choice to chose the simpler one, and the one changes the less what's already working in a balanced way. I personally would prefer an improved CG promotion line (which helps defending also imporved tiles, not just cities) or a "forfait bonus" free promotion (which gives a little defensive help to the units inside the cultural border), better than a whole brand new promotion line.

My personal best choice to improve Protective is (as better explained some posts above) one of this two (the choice A is my favourite):

A.
* 1/2 price aqueduct
* change the CG promotion line as follow:
CGI: +20% city defense
CGII: +25% city defense; +10% defense in improved tiles inside your cultural borders
CGIII: +30% city defense; +15% defense in improved tiles inside your cultural borders

B.
* 1/2 price aqueduct
* +10% defensive bonus inside the cultural borders to all (or some types of) units (siege and armored probably shouldn't have it). This could be done with a free promotion (could be called "cultural defender") to the unit types choosed.

@kniteowl: I'll check the Imperialist trait thread

I think you're taking the meaning of Protective and Defensive too literally, You wouldn't consider it protective you take back a town, improvements and land that originally belonged to you???

The Problem with Protective isn't in MP, but in SP where the AI focuses mostly on a Pillaging your lands to death, making Protective near useless (although this may change with Better AI).

The Fact the the bonus only works on the defensive is almost useless because you require to build ALOT of units to defend you're many broader tiles unless you're lucky to be blessed with a Peninsula and all those unit are gonna cost you, slowing down your economy.

This improved bonus to CG is basically useless on normal tiles within you're cultural broader, you're better off defending with your melee units

Lowbowmen with CG3 fotified on flat land

6 str + 25% from CG 2&3 + 25 from Fortifying = 9str

Macemen Unpromoted Fortified

8 Str + 25% = 10Str

Although Macemen may cost more, their more versitile and they can use their abilities on the offensive while the High promoted Lowbowmen can only be effective on the Defensive. Therefore in actual Gameplay, most people will generally ignore the extra bonus to CG promotions and just use other units like normal so improving that won't change people's gameplay.

And I've already Said my 2 cent about about the extra 10% within cultural broaders... it's too generic... I won't a unique bonus that will keep the the trait interesting and different to the others.

here's another Idea instead of creating a new CD promotion, how about improving the Drill line, most people generally ignore this promotion line because the Free Strikes seem too random.

Extra bonuses to Drill

Drill II - + 10% vs Melee
Drill III - + 10% vs Seige
Drill IV - (Already has a bonus against Mounted)
Drill V - + (More first strikes) + 10% vs Gunpowder

I know this (Indirectly) gives Protective an Offensive edge but Drill has always been Offensive. I'm just making this Promotion line more Likable as Drill has kind of been under-apreciated as most Protective players usually just go down to CG 3 and use their defenders for new captured cities.

Remember Drill can only be given to particular unit types so generally Crossbow will used for this tactic.