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Improvements NOT in the fat cross

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by abev, Sep 15, 2006.

  1. abev

    abev Chieftain

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    Is there any point to building farms or cottages located outside of a cities fat cross? I have a large area between cities thats in my cultural boundaries, but not within city limits.

    I could guess they have some effect on the entire civ but not on any city?
     
  2. GeneralGab

    GeneralGab Chieftain

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    Farms may help you get irrigation to other farms, which gives +1 :food:, once you get Civil Service.
    A cottage on a non-worked tile is worthless.
     
  3. DaveMcW

    DaveMcW Deity

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    Build a city there, then add farms and cottages. ;)
     
  4. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    Assuming you have workers with nothing to do...

    If it's a hill, build a mine... possible it could be a late game resource (like aluminum) and it'll instantly pop in.

    Wodan
     
  5. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    No, the mine only has a chance to pop a resource each turn it is being worked by a city. Mines not in a city radius can never pop a resource.
     
  6. Quagga

    Quagga Former Dictator

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    I think the idea was that when Aluminum or Coal is discovered, it might be in a spot you already have a mine. Certainly one does not have to work a tile to have a resource pop up. Consider Copper, Iron, Horses.
     
  7. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    What Quagga said. That's why I said "possible it could be a late game resource" instead of "possible you could discover a brand new resource". :)

    Wodan
     
  8. MrCynical

    MrCynical Deity

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    :blush: Oops. I've seen people suggest mines for that reason before, and I misread this. I suppose it might save you a turn hooking up a resource (maybe), but it's a long shot.

    Cottages/workshops/lumbermills and so on are definitely pointless though.
     
  9. Quagga

    Quagga Former Dictator

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    Here's another (small) reason to improve these otherwise useless tiles: Enemy pillaging. I find that the AI doesn't care whether an improvement is useful. They'll spend a move pillaging a mine, cottage, workshop, etc even if it isn't being worked. That could produce enough delay for you to get more force into the area.
     
  10. Eqqman

    Eqqman Walrus

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    Definitely! In a one city challenge game I'll build a road and improvement on every tile in my border for just this reason.
     
  11. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    Good point, Quagga. I often do that, plant something out there (not a fort!) simply to give the AI something to burn down and give me time to assemble a response force.

    Also, nobody mentioned chopping. Even outside the fat cross, you still get a little bit.

    One game I purposefully left gaps between my cities (the resources just a bit further on were very tasty, and mountains precluded two cities in the same area). This gap happened to be filled with forests. Throughout the game, I chopped every other forest, they regrew over time, rinse, repeat. :D It didn't even hurt my worked tiles, because it was outside the fat cross.

    Wodan
     
  12. abev

    abev Chieftain

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    Great replies, all.

    SO lets drift a bit here... I think Ive read this somewhere -> the optimal city build strat is to have all fat crosses butt up against each other, in as much as there are resources?

    Two neighboring cities with two productive tiles between their fat crosses would be a waste and never be able to be taken advantage of?
     
  13. Zophos

    Zophos Greater Ape of Antics

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    Perhaps, perhaps not. City placement is an art, and it's very dependent on the terrain and resource distribution. So, as with most things, "it depends". ;)

    There is a well-regarded school of thought that says BFCs should actually overlap a bit, especially in your first few cities, to (a) cut distance maintenance, and (b) allow shifting of tiles from one city to another (think of a copper mine that can be worked by two cities, depending on which one needs hammers most right now). You have to get into the mid-to-late game anyway before any city could actually work most of its 20 tiles, much less all of them.

    If it's really just two tiles, yeah, you'll probably never get much benefit from them (unless you farm forests there, or a late resource pops up). You have to balance that against what you gain by locating your city that extra tile or two away. Because of the exponential growth of any advantage (or disadvantage) in the game, it's often more important to use the BEST tiles FAST than it is to use ALL the tiles EVENTUALLY.
     
  14. Wodan

    Wodan Deity

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    If you ascribe to the theory that the more cities you can have (in the late game), the better, then yes. Or, you might even want some overlap. If you ascribe to the theory that your first 3-4 cities are critical in what resources and tiles are available to them, then you may want some gap. Ultimately, the answer is a mix of these two.

    Without razing one or both cities, that's correct.

    Wodan
     
  15. drkodos

    drkodos Emperor

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    There are several minor conditions where it might make some sense:

    1. IF there is an important road going through the tile, adding a cottage gives the enemy something they have to pillage before they get to the road. This gives the defender an extra turn or two to respond to the attack before the road network gets interrupted.

    2. If initial city builds are spaced out enough to allow extra cities to be developed late game, then it could make sense to have those areas pre-built.

    I have used both of these tactics in a few games.
     
  16. CivDude86

    CivDude86 King

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    Might want to leave spaces next to forests alone so a forest may grow there.
     
  17. cabert

    cabert Big mouth

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    2 major ideas are opposing here :
    - improve the land to fool the AI
    - leave land unimproved (other than chopping) to let forest (re)grow there.

    From those 2, i generally use the second. When my workers have little to do, i send them chopping outside fat crosses. 9 hammers is better than 0 :lol:
     
  18. Chrono285

    Chrono285 Chieftain

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    How do you control which city gets the tile? I've noticed that new cities can 'steal' overlapping tiles even if the new city isn't working them, much to my chagrin.
     
  19. Zophos

    Zophos Greater Ape of Antics

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    In the city screen, you may see one or more tiles that are dark - those are 'assigned' to some other city that overlaps this one. (They may or not be worked, but they will show as bright in that city's screen). If you click once on that tile, it will brighten (and be removed from the other city). A second click will then assign a citizen to work the tile.
     
  20. Vizzini

    Vizzini Warlord

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    If my workers have nothing to do there are always roads that need built somewhere - either a city plot you plan to eventually send a settler to, or an invasion route for a future war. (Or to hook up an AI civ to your land trade route - I'm not content to wait for the AI to get around to hooking us up so we can get trade routes going. That's fairly early in the game tho when you should have far more jobs than workers to do those jobs :p )

    Using a worker to build an improvement on a tile that cannot be worked by one of your cities is a huge waste of worker turns unless you have ulterior motives (slowing down an invader) or really nothing better to do with the worker.
     

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