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Improving Feature Health [ACCEPTED]

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - We The People' started by raystuttgart, Feb 4, 2020.

?

Does this sound like a good way to improve "Health"?

  1. Yes, I like that idea.

    80.0%
  2. No, I do not like that ida.

    20.0%
  1. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Since several people asked to improve "Health" to become more interesting I now try to suggest a concept for that.
    (It does however not try to make health more tedious. Just a bit more flavourful and meaningful.)

    It basically has 4 small components:


    A) Slightly rebalancing current Health settings

    Health currently has a very high "min population setting" to affect cities negatively at all.
    Thus the current implementation is way too forgiving and thus uninteresting.

    "Min Population Setting" could be lowered a bit.
    Maybe the algorithm for "Health effects" might be adjusted as well.

    But we will need to see when doing test games and balancing. :dunno:

    What I do not want to do:
    • Having Terrains impact Health negatively --> Too hard to balance / find consense
    • Having Improvement impact Health negatively --> Too hard to balance / find consense
    B) Having a few more Buildings affect Health

    e.g. for negative effects (only for 2nd Level and further Upgrades)
    • Tannery (e.g. -1)
    • Distillery (e.g. -1)
    • Weapons Factory (e.g. -1)
    • Tool Factory (e.g. -1)
    • ...
    e.g. for positive effects
    • Corn Chamber (+1)
    • Storage House (+1)
    • Spice Trader's House (+1)
    • Market (+1)
    • ...
    Others already do affect positively:
    • Well (+1)
    • Medic House (and all Upgrades)

    C) New Profession "Fruit Farmer"
    Spoiler :
    There is another technical solution as well by "flagging" the specific Bonus Ressources as "healthy" in XML.
    It would not need a new Profession using "Multiple Yields Produced by Profession".
    But it would be more effort for coding and visualization.

    "Fruit Farmer" would only be valid on specific "Fruit Bonus Ressources". (configurable in XML)

    Profession "Fruit Farmer" would produce both -> Food + Health
    (Using "Multiple Yields Per Profession" - as other Professions alread do as well.)

    We would do this without a new Expert -> Expert would also still be "Expert Farmer".
    We would do this without a new Improvement -> Improvement would still be "Farms" (+ Upgrades)

    We currently have already "Fruit Bonus Ressources" like e.g.
    (Those would stay unchanged.)
    • Bananas
    • Cocoa Nuts
    • Melons
    We could add 3 new "Fruit Bonus Ressources":
    (Graphics should be available already.)
    • Apples (on Plains and Grasland)
    • Citrus Fruits (on Savannah)
    • Tundra Berries (on Tundra)
    D) Sales of some "Refined Yields" on Domestic Market generate a little Health

    This will only happen for "Refined Yields" and only such ones where it does make sense considering authenticity (e.g. consumed as Food / Drink and known to have a positive Health effect).

    Health will only be generated if the Domestic Market Supply / Sale is higher then the current Domestic Market Demand.
    For every Yield for which this is true, Health (e.g. +2) will be added.
    • Wine (because cleaner than river water in those days)
    • Beer (because cleaner than river water in those days )
    • Refined Salt (because Human Bodies need it and for conserving food)
    • Spices (because Human Bodies need it and for conserving food)
    • ...
    They would thus get a bit more valuable than now and not only be "Cash Yields.
    Domestic Market would get more important.

    E) AI concept

    Like now, AI will be excluded from all negative effects the feature could cause.
    It will be able to profit from the positive effects though if it achieves to produce enough Health.

    We can give AI this small advantage for now. :)

    F) Balancing in XML

    Most of this will be configurable in XML. (GlobalDefinesAl, Professions, Buildings, Yields)

    -----------

    So basically it comes down to:

    A) Rebalancing Health a bit
    B) Adding a new Profession "Fruit Farmer" and 3 more "Fruit Bonus Ressources"
    C) Having a few more Buildings impact Health negatively or positively
    D) Using Domestic Market to generate a bit of Health as well (for late game)

    It is pretty simple and clean.

    Only few new graphics will be needed.
    (Only new "Fruit Bonus Ressources" - but as far as I know they already exist.)
    Most of it is XML (And maybe adjusting Scenario Maps with fixed Bonus Ressources)
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  2. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    Voted like. The impact on growth is a good idea. Pretty straight forward to understand and visualize, since you can see the turns till growth.
    As long as it's not too drastic an impact, I'm all for it. ,
     
    CptBadger likes this.
  3. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    Thank you for considering my suggestion to provide a health bonus for different types of food production; this seems a much more elegant solution than what I proposed.

    However, with adding all these additional sources of health from food, I think you should reconsider your opposition to adding negative health to certain buildings or improvements. Unless the negative health from population is massively increased, managing health is likely to be trivial.

    When considering other ways health could influence gameplay beyond production bonuses/malus, would it be possible for large negative health to trigger an event, killing one (or more) of your colonists? Malaria and yellow fever were massive killers for colonists everywhere south of Pennsylvania.
     
  4. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    No problem. :thumbsup:
    We want our player to like our mod as well.

    As I said, it would be hard to balance.
    Also I fear we would not get a consense in community and team.

    That is what I want to work with. I will improve the balancing for that.
    (Thresholds, "Health per Citizen", algorithm in DLL itself ...)

    Yes it would but again this would most likely kill this concept because we would not get a consense in community and team.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  5. rah

    rah Deity Supporter

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    While I understand your desire,
    Design by consensus leads to just average outcomes. Sometimes it's best to go for the extraordinary.
     
    HobyMorgan, CptBadger and Guynemer like this.
  6. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    When checking my old code I saw that it is already implemented.
    It seems I had coded so much into RaR that I started to forget some of it after a couple of years of absence / retirement from modding. :lol:
     
  7. devolution

    devolution Prince

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    Wait a sec, surely the health should come from the consumption of yields rather than their production.
    if city A produces salt, city B may consume it to gain health. This gives an incentive to refine, transport and supply yields to large cities in need of health. I am not opposed to the production having an effect since it will provide an incentive to produce diverse first-tier yields in any given city but this "production" effect must be less than the "consumption" effect IMHO.
    All we have to do is to let the market grant health when spices, salt, chocolate, coffee (Note that these are refined\second-tier yields) are being consumed.

    - Fish should arguably give health to be consistent

    - It would not be a bad thing to have terrain affect the health of a city. Tropical\temperate locations are already a bit too powerful due to food\non-food yields being abundant and tundra cities could use a slight boost.

    - High level industrial buildings like the iron works \ tool factory should definitely create negative health. The latter already reduces food yields negatively I think.

    - The happiness mechanic could work just the same way, but rather it will consume alcohol (and maybe the weird coca yield) instead.

    I'm abstaining from voting until we clarify this :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2020
  8. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

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    I voted no.

    I think the health mechanic is just fine as is. A simple brake on growth without adding too much complexity or headaches.
     
  9. Tugboatspotter

    Tugboatspotter Warlord

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    Other than rebalancing health settings, I'm not enthusiastic about this, so a no from me.

    I prefer the current mechanic - it is simple and works fine to limit city growth. As I mentioned in the happiness thread, Ideally I would prefer a similar simple system for happiness to keep some of the concepts consistent, although I realize the consensus is probably against this.
     
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  10. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    It does, but I also agree that it is currently a bit of dull and not interesting enough. :dunno:

    While realistic and accurate I don't want to do that because "Fish" is too abundant.
    It is also just "YIELD FOOD" and not sold on Domestic Market.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  11. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Ok guys, after reading the feedback I adjusted the concept again. :)

    Please check your votes in the poll again - because maybe you want to reconsider due to the changes in the concept.
    Please take your time to read the (updated) starting post again before you decide. :thumbsup:
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  12. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    Like this even more than your original proposal, and I liked that one a lot.
     
  13. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Thanks. :)
    But I just tried to consolidate the input.

    Let us see if we get a consense. :dunno:
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  14. Guynemer

    Guynemer King

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    I know I can be a pain in the ass, but I really, really love this mod and appreciate all the work you're putting into it. Thanks, ray.
     
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  15. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Thanks in the name of all the people that worked on RaR and currently work on WTP. :)

    Thanks, but I need to clarify this.

    In the last 2 years Schmiddie, Nightinggale and devolution have put most of the work into RaR and now WTP. :thumbsup:
    There were others that supported as well of course but I was not even a team member for that time and have just recently rejoined the team.

    Now since I am back and want to do new features, it might give a wrong impression that I am currently the most active modder.
    However the work of e.g. Nightinggale and devolution is simply not as visible to community since they mainly work deeper in the code (AI optimization, modding tools, performance, ...).

    Simply never forget that a mod like this is not a "one person project".
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2020
  16. OzzyKP

    OzzyKP Emperor

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    I like your changes to the proposal (especially health from domestic consumption), but I very much don't like generating health directly for harvesting fruit, and overall I still prefer to just stick with the simple system we have.
     
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  17. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    If majority of community and team don't want it, that part of the concept will be removed. :thumbsup:

    I would like to get more feedback to this first. :dunno:
    (Maybe it is one of the things others like about the concept and thus voted for it.)

    That could happen as well, if community majority and team vote against the complete concept. :thumbsup:
     
  18. CptBadger

    CptBadger Chieftain

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    I love it, esp the fruit farming.
     
  19. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Deity

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    You left out bugfixes. We fixed countless bugs (I think it's around 50-60 by now). This is something, which is completely invisible if you don't know the mod used to contain bugs. A number of the fixes are actually vanilla bugs. Another thing, which has more work put into it than first meets the eye is the fact that the mod can read savegames from RaR 2.7 and any version of WTP ever released. Like bugs, this is invisible to the player in the sense that it just works like it should without providing any indication about the amount of work which has been done behind the scenes to make it work like that.

    Yes, quality modding is a team effort. What Ray is doing right now is writing a bunch of proposals to start a debate regarding what the long term goals should be for the team. Also it's not like Ray is the only one to do so as I have 5 proposals on the first page right now. When we decide to implement one of the proposals, then it doesn't have to be done by the person who proposed it. While it's likely, odds are that each proposal ends up being split into smaller parts, which can then be assigned to different people.
     
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  20. raystuttgart

    raystuttgart Civ4Col Modder

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    Absolutely true. :thumbsup:

    Yes, it is about long term goals and about identifiying dependencies between the features to consider in implementation.
    Implementation of those features will of course take its time and will definitely be a team effort as well.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020

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