Improving on Monarch level
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Seraiel
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The only thing that's possible, is, that as long as your empire is still quite small, you can change 2 Civics together with only using one turn, so in this case, you can swith to REP / PS and OR together.
The 3rd option to be able to switch instant without causing a recolution is the Cristo Redentor WW that comes with Radio. That one os a really good wonder, but as it comes so late, it only plays a role in Space Races time Games.
We're waiting on a decision from you Todelotti btw.. Do you want to end this round as fast as possible (conquer the world with Elephants) or do you want to play a longer game to learn more for your next game on Emp / Imm?
The 3rd option to be able to switch instant without causing a recolution is the Cristo Redentor WW that comes with Radio. That one os a really good wonder, but as it comes so late, it only plays a role in Space Races time Games.
We're waiting on a decision from you Todelotti btw.. Do you want to end this round as fast as possible (conquer the world with Elephants) or do you want to play a longer game to learn more for your next game on Emp / Imm?
Oh, sorry, I even didn't notice that this question was open. Longer Game if that is OK for you! If I can learn general strategies that will also apply to higher difficulties then this would interest me more.
Seraiel
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Ok. This means that you should switch to REP instead of PS, use your new happy-cap and try to grow your cities as early as affordable. Getting the troops to attack Monty are very imprtant, but you only need few more, maybe you can chop units instead of whipping them.
Also, run 2 Scientists in the capital again as soon as affordable.
And don't forget the Settler for the Gold. Clams Ivory you can found later as it's in your territory. It's a good city though, so latest time to start building the Settler is once you notice that you dont need further reinforcements fir Monty.
Turn 94 - 525 BC
WAR! Now Montezuma declared!
At the end of turn 92 I converted to Judaism and in turn 93 I changed civics to Representation and Organized Religion.
I've tried to sketch the military situation at the border on the attached image:
- Red rectangle on the left = My units in Uppsala (ignore the stupid names "DEFAULT", I've messed up something in the BUG unit name settings)
- And under Monty's units I have listed the unit names that are in the stacks (3 small stacks in a row at the moment, but there could be more behind in the fog)
- I can promote one catapult - and my guess is I should select Barrage to increase collateral damage (I don't attack a city, so I expect City Raider won't have an effect in this situation. I have no clue about Drill, never used that.)
- I could also upgrade one warrior to an axe for instance (80 gold and I have 91)
- I can 1-pop-whip the city walls now
What's the best approach? Throwing a cat on the first stack and then kill it with units (he's on a tile without defense bonus)? Wouldn't that be dangerous to waste too much because I don't know yet what comes behind Monty's first 3 stacks? Is it better to wait for his attack on the city or maybe until he has piled up a bigger stack?
WAR! Now Montezuma declared!
At the end of turn 92 I converted to Judaism and in turn 93 I changed civics to Representation and Organized Religion.
I've tried to sketch the military situation at the border on the attached image:
- Red rectangle on the left = My units in Uppsala (ignore the stupid names "DEFAULT", I've messed up something in the BUG unit name settings)
- And under Monty's units I have listed the unit names that are in the stacks (3 small stacks in a row at the moment, but there could be more behind in the fog)
- I can promote one catapult - and my guess is I should select Barrage to increase collateral damage (I don't attack a city, so I expect City Raider won't have an effect in this situation. I have no clue about Drill, never used that.)
- I could also upgrade one warrior to an axe for instance (80 gold and I have 91)
- I can 1-pop-whip the city walls now
What's the best approach? Throwing a cat on the first stack and then kill it with units (he's on a tile without defense bonus)? Wouldn't that be dangerous to waste too much because I don't know yet what comes behind Monty's first 3 stacks? Is it better to wait for his attack on the city or maybe until he has piled up a bigger stack?
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Seraiel
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I would leave all units in the city, because it's likely that Monty will sacrifice all of his units against your walls. Don't forget, that Walls cive you 50% defense bonus.
Should he not attack but camp that position, attack him on the next turn. Use a Catapult first, because it causes damage to up to six units. Barrage is a good promotion for this. You also had the right intuition about drill, so that barrage is better in this case.
Drill gives your units Firststrikes, so when they attack, they get free bonus rounds where they can do dmg. while the other unit cannot do anything. This is only needed on Catapults when you attack enemies that are far stronger than your siege unit.
Drill for up to 6 normal units does make sense though, because normal units gain immunity to siege, which is very important when you get attacked from siege. 6 units, because collatetal hits up to 6 units, so if you have 6 Drill4 units, your stack is 80% immune to collateral.
The stack with which monty attacks is everything he got btw., so you don't have to fear what's under thw fog. Go for a counter attack once you got at least 2 catapults with you and bombard the cumtural defense of his city before attacking the defenders with collateral.
Don't upgrade any units that, you're in a good position, and that gold will be nice for researching Currency once you got HBR.
Build at least 1 HA if possible, and make him a medic, so that your units heal faster. 2 more Elephants would also be nice. If you cannot get Horses for the medic, choose the unit with the most XP and promote it to C1 and then Medic 1.
Should he not attack but camp that position, attack him on the next turn. Use a Catapult first, because it causes damage to up to six units. Barrage is a good promotion for this. You also had the right intuition about drill, so that barrage is better in this case.
Drill gives your units Firststrikes, so when they attack, they get free bonus rounds where they can do dmg. while the other unit cannot do anything. This is only needed on Catapults when you attack enemies that are far stronger than your siege unit.
Drill for up to 6 normal units does make sense though, because normal units gain immunity to siege, which is very important when you get attacked from siege. 6 units, because collatetal hits up to 6 units, so if you have 6 Drill4 units, your stack is 80% immune to collateral.
The stack with which monty attacks is everything he got btw., so you don't have to fear what's under thw fog. Go for a counter attack once you got at least 2 catapults with you and bombard the cumtural defense of his city before attacking the defenders with collateral.
Don't upgrade any units that, you're in a good position, and that gold will be nice for researching Currency once you got HBR.
Build at least 1 HA if possible, and make him a medic, so that your units heal faster. 2 more Elephants would also be nice. If you cannot get Horses for the medic, choose the unit with the most XP and promote it to C1 and then Medic 1.
Pangaea
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If you get out the walls now you will have 50% defence, and since Monty doesn't have catas, he'll probably still attack, maybe one stack by the other. You'll probably win all those battles with +50% defence, so no need to use the catas on only four units I think. If he gets all together you can do it, and then farm them. You are aggressive, so only need 2 XP for a Shock Axe. Then Monty will find it even tougher. Keep getting units there, I'd say, and let Monty attack your walled defenders. Soon enough his force on your border should be spent, and then you can go on the attack with your catas, and hopefully some upgraded Axes.
If you go on the attack, don't promote all units right away. Only promote when you need it. That way you can use promotions to heal in the field, and use the promotions you need. Right now city raider does nothing for you. But if you get outside his cities you can choose that promotion when attacking. It's good to have at least one shock axe though, as that guy will be really tough to take down when you march through that forest into his land on.
Don't upgrade the warriors btw, unless you absolutely need it. It's way too expensive and your gold can be used for research instead.
Also, does Mansa have something you can trade from him? He is already researching Construction, so if you can get something for it, then do it.
Are any of Shaka's Axes, Shock-promoted btw?
Edit: ^^ Ninja-ed
If you go on the attack, don't promote all units right away. Only promote when you need it. That way you can use promotions to heal in the field, and use the promotions you need. Right now city raider does nothing for you. But if you get outside his cities you can choose that promotion when attacking. It's good to have at least one shock axe though, as that guy will be really tough to take down when you march through that forest into his land on.
Don't upgrade the warriors btw, unless you absolutely need it. It's way too expensive and your gold can be used for research instead.
Also, does Mansa have something you can trade from him? He is already researching Construction, so if you can get something for it, then do it.
Are any of Shaka's Axes, Shock-promoted btw?
Edit: ^^ Ninja-ed
Seriously?SERIOUSLY?
Given that this is Monarch, yes. On higher levels Rep is the better choice, though there are valid arguments for both, especially given you only have 1 library at present and no Code of Laws.
PS: you're about to fight, you want units, you've virtually teched all you want for now, you're chopping units. PS makes your 2-whips 75
and you math chops 35 (or is it 37.5?) .Rep: More happiness to alleviate whip anger and/or grow bigger cities, faster teching if in a position to hire specialists.
Regarding the war, you've been well advised already: whip the walls, let him suicide, counterattack with 2-3 catapults and axes. If he doesn't attack and has 6+ units stacked on grassland/plains, sacrifice a barrage cata and clean up. Are you gonna keep all his cities? Teotihuacan is horribly placed...
Now you've gone Jewish watch out for Gilga and Charlie. What religions are they in? Charlie is a big zealot and Gilga is a big warmonger. Killing Monty won't be the end of the elepult fun.
@Sera Don't think the Ivory/Clam city you like is actually possible (it's 2 tiles from the cap).
Seraiel
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Forget what I wrote about the HA-medic, I forgot that you're AGG and get free C1 on melee units. Therefore promote your most-xp-axe to medic 1. For the missing MP we simply spec moral once he got GG and is medic 3.
He has Monarchy, Metal Casting and Code of Laws but doesn't trade anything of that for my Construction.
Yes, the Spearman in the first stack and the Axeman in the last stack. Other than that I only see Combat 1 and partially Combat 2 promotions and Woodsman 1 and 2 (some of the Jaguars have it).
Now that you say this I remember that I once (in my early noob games below Noble level) captured the Pyramids and changed to Police State early and it made perfect sense. Don't know why I was shocked now.
It's probably often a reasonable choice.About the game: I've played around 10 turns after Monty's DoW and actually twice (kind of test runs) but I'd like to go back. Monty moved and joined his stacks to the tile 1W of Uppsala. I tried 2 variants then: 1) Attack him on that tile, 2) Wait in the city for his attack (and he actually did attack). The result after around 3 turns more was basically the same: He lost almost all units (he retreated 1 or 2 back into the fog) and I lost just 1 cat and 1 or 2 axes. I understand now that Uppsala is absolutely safe.
However, I don't see how I could counterattack immediately. With the loss of 2 axes the only remaining offensive unit is 1 single axe. The rest are archers, warriors and 4 cats. I think I have to wait for 1) finishing HBR, 2) building a few elephants (Seraiel recommended at least 10 offensive units). All in all I expect that will need at least 10 to 15 turns after defeating Monty's attacking stack, so at least 13 to 18 turns after DoW.
But where I am more unsatisfied with those 2 test runs is a special event: Directly the turn after Monty's DoW Charly declared war on me as well. What did I? I basically ignored it and it turned out that ignoring it was no problem. I never saw one of Charly's units (well, a Scout was crossing my borders and I removed him with an archer) and after 10 turns or so he is offering peace. Pure luck and is that to be expected? I have the feeling ignoring Charly's war dec can't be right, or is it? What if he actually had sent his own stack coming from north-east against my almost undefended Pyramid city or capital while I was fighting and having all my military stuff on the west Monty front?
So, question is now before I start the final and official run after Monty's war dec: What to do after Charly's war dec? Don't I have to do something on the diplomatic level, like bribing Mansa or Ramesses against Charly? However it will cost something and make my relationship to Charly even worse. Or is just ignoring such a follow-up war dec (probably bribed by Monty) a reliable and actually the best approach?
Seraiel
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You forgot that I told you to beg a resource from everybody you have on pleased, so you get a 10T peace treaty. Now you should 1st check, if BurgerKing has open borders with the others, so if he can reach you at all. If he can, you should bribe
someone between you and him to war, so that hia units cannot reach you. If that is impossible, wait, he'll probably need at least 20T 'til he reaches you, and RTT should go away 'til then, so you probably can get peace for a cheap tech.
Having 2 losses when defending that city I can hardly believe, were you impatient and attacked him instead of letting him attack? You must let him attack, otherwise you never had needed to build those walls!
If you need units, whip your arbitrary cities for Elephants but don't touch your capital, at least that city needa to grow.
Another trick to not suffer any bribes, is to bribe someone against your target, so that he gets the counter bribes. You also get nice diplomatic bonuses then.
Also: Gift Mansa Construction when he has only 1T left on it. You get +1 with Mansa for every 7 techs you trade to him.
someone between you and him to war, so that hia units cannot reach you. If that is impossible, wait, he'll probably need at least 20T 'til he reaches you, and RTT should go away 'til then, so you probably can get peace for a cheap tech.
Having 2 losses when defending that city I can hardly believe, were you impatient and attacked him instead of letting him attack? You must let him attack, otherwise you never had needed to build those walls!
If you need units, whip your arbitrary cities for Elephants but don't touch your capital, at least that city needa to grow.
Another trick to not suffer any bribes, is to bribe someone against your target, so that he gets the counter bribes. You also get nice diplomatic bonuses then.
Also: Gift Mansa Construction when he has only 1T left on it. You get +1 with Mansa for every 7 techs you trade to him.
Pangaea
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Then he has researched too much into it already. Maybe if you caught it earlier you could have got Monarchy for Construction, or even CoL.
I'm not sure if you tried both approaches, bot letting him attack and you taking the initiative (but I assume you did?), but I would certainly think you're better off letting him attack first here. Or alternatively suicide one cata into the stack, if he collects everybody outside your city before attacking, and then let him attack with many wounded units. Suppose you don't have the units right away to counter him, but once you get some elephants and/or HAs, it should be okay to do so, as long as you have some catas with you. This early in the game, catas are great. They can even do a job against longbows if you bring enough of them, so they'll do a heck of a job against axes and archers.
I assume you have quite some whip anger already, so think I'd prefer the happiness from Rep over some extra hammers with Police State. But it's your choice. Both have their own advantages.
Sounds like the declaration from Charlie wasn't a problem, and if you just take out a scout you get war success on him, which is typically enough to get a peace treaty when he's willing to talk (it usually takes 8-10 turns). Sounds like he's far away, so it should not be a big concern. As Seraiel says, he may not even be able to reach you. If possible it could make sense to bribe somebody else on him, however. Then he almost certainly won't send units towards you, and hopefully this was will keep going for quite a while, with both AIs killing each others' units, and both researching slower.
OK, thanks for the lot of input again! I'm back now at turn 94 when Monty declared war. Now slowly and step by step! I want to get that situation right because after the collision with Giggles' settler it's the second difficult point.
The first thing that I want to sort out now is the diplomatic stuff:
As said, nobody is pleased except Mansa and Mansa doesn't offer any resource trades and also refuses to gift a tech to me. I don't see a way to get a 10T peace treaty with anyone right now (except I could try to DEMAND something but that is a weapon that could shoot back against me, I guess).
He has no open borders with Gilgamesh and Mansa who are between him and me, but there is a small corridor through unsettled land he could go through. (The corridor might close soon however when Gilgamesh expands borders. Cannot tell however when this will happen. For now I consider the corridor as a possible path for Charly's troops.)
Because of that open corridor, he can! I cannot bribe anyone against him and even if I could there is still the open corridor. So, he can reach me in any case if he wanted.
So, yes, it's impossible. (Distance from his closest 2 cities to Haithabu is btw 8 tiles (partially roaded in his own land).)
(What is "RTT"?)
This could possibly work! Because Mansa is willing to declare war on Monty for Construction. I will do that now!
Does it count as trade and towards the +1 diplo bonus if I give Mansa Construction for declaring war on Monty?
The first thing that I want to sort out now is the diplomatic stuff:
As said, nobody is pleased except Mansa and Mansa doesn't offer any resource trades and also refuses to gift a tech to me. I don't see a way to get a 10T peace treaty with anyone right now (except I could try to DEMAND something but that is a weapon that could shoot back against me, I guess).
He has no open borders with Gilgamesh and Mansa who are between him and me, but there is a small corridor through unsettled land he could go through. (The corridor might close soon however when Gilgamesh expands borders. Cannot tell however when this will happen. For now I consider the corridor as a possible path for Charly's troops.)
Because of that open corridor, he can! I cannot bribe anyone against him and even if I could there is still the open corridor. So, he can reach me in any case if he wanted.
So, yes, it's impossible. (Distance from his closest 2 cities to Haithabu is btw 8 tiles (partially roaded in his own land).)
(What is "RTT"?)
This could possibly work! Because Mansa is willing to declare war on Monty for Construction. I will do that now!
Does it count as trade and towards the +1 diplo bonus if I give Mansa Construction for declaring war on Monty?
Seraiel
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Have you already gifted Giggles + BurgerKing 1 or 2 techs to get the +4 from fair trades?
Don't demand, you'll get -1 and he will deny because you need more power than him to even have a chance at the demand being succesful.
RTT stands for refuse to talk.
Is BK already at war with you? If he is, it's too late for this. One bribes a 2nd civ to war when warring oneself so that it suck up the bribes.
The war has a value in Gold. If you surpass this limit by gifting him a lot more beakers, you'll get + with mansa and - with his WEs.
In this case, it should be fairly equal. Normally, bribes cost more than 1 tech.
Arrggh, I get depressions
Always I forget something important. No, I didn't gift them anything yet. I just had 2 tech trades with BurgerKing and I have a running resource trade (pigs for corn). With Gilgamesh I had 1 tech trade.Does it make sense to gift a tech NOW or is it too late?
No, he isn't yet at war with me. So, I will bribe Mansa against Monty and see what happens.
Seraiel
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Yes, it does still make sense to gift him a tech now. Bettet late then never 
.
Instead of trading resourcea, you could maybe get him to pleased via 1 or 2 tech gifts and then beg the resource from him. It's very likely that he'll agree as it's the first time you ask, giving you 10 ensured peace.
It may also be, that he cannot even DoW you when being pleased, for that information check the Civ Illustrated #1 guide.
.Instead of trading resourcea, you could maybe get him to pleased via 1 or 2 tech gifts and then beg the resource from him. It's very likely that he'll agree as it's the first time you ask, giving you 10 ensured peace.
It may also be, that he cannot even DoW you when being pleased, for that information check the Civ Illustrated #1 guide.
Yes, it does still make sense to gift him a tech now. Bettet late then never
Instead of trading resourcea, you could maybe get him to pleased via 1 or 2 tech gifts and then beg the resource from him. It's very likely that he'll agree as it's the first time you ask, giving you 10 ensured peace.
It may also be, that he cannot even DoW you when being pleased, for that information check the Civ Illustrated #1 guide.
I tested the possible options a bit:
- Bribing Mansa against Monty didn't help. BurgerKing is still declaring war against me instead of Mansa.
- I have to give 2 techs to BK to bring him to +1 fair trade. He stays at cautious however and still declares war against me.
- I have to give 3 techs to BK to bring him to +3 fair trade (which drops to +2 after around 5 turns though). He stays cautious but doesn't declare war.
- And if I give him all 4 techs I get +4 fair trade but still cautious. But he doesn't declare war.
Wow, is that difficult! Anyway, I know already I don't have to care so much about his DoW because nothing happens. But that knowledge is kind of cheated.
But reading all your tips you seem to consider managing diplomatic relationships in the early phase as very important, right? I never really did to be honest, that's why I usually have a lot of cautious relationships (except when sharing a religion or not). The main reason is, I believe, that I don't give the AIs something without getting something back. So, I normally never gift and I even trade techs in most cases only when the beakers are almost on par. I have to change this habit and somehow get a grasp where the limit for gifting is. (Gifting 4 fat techs for the +4 fair trade and then even not at pleased looks kind of rip-off from the BurgerKing.
)OK, just to finish diplomacy now and to focus on the war: I gift BK 3 techs now. And also a few techs to Gilgamesh because there are actually even more tensions with him than with BK. And then when Mansa has almost completed Construction I gift him that tech as well.
And if you say, that's crap, I go back again and replay. I have good practice in replaying now...
(BTW: BK doesn't DoW at pleased.)
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