Attention, there is Gilgamesh! You can see a corner of his empire 1N2W from the northern corn. He might settle right there and get the Ivory+the good food support. Do you have the tile 1S of the Sheep in mind to catch the West-Copper in second ring? Didn't think about that spot...
Improving on Monarch level
- Thread starter Todelotti
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Attention, there is Gilgamesh! You can see a corner of his empire 1N2W from the northern corn. He might settle right there and get the Ivory+the good food support. Do you have the tile 1S of the Sheep in mind to catch the West-Copper in second ring? Didn't think about that spot...
-Revolt to slavery, change production to a settler, 2-whip it.
-Decide if you want to settle your copper or steal Monty's. Either settle your X1 (or possibly 1N or in between sheep/wine/copper to W.
-Decide if you want to beeline alpha. I wouldn't. I'd do AH-wheel-pot to improve cow/sheep and get some cottages out.
-If you choose X1, send the worker to chop the forest once he's finished the mine. Build a worker at size 2 in the capital straight after the settler finishes to avoid regrowing onto unimproved tiles. Your first worker can improve the second city doing copper then AH resource. Lend corn to second city and produce worker with wet corn/green mine in cap.
-Decide if you want to settle your copper or steal Monty's. Either settle your X1 (or possibly 1N or in between sheep/wine/copper to W.
-Decide if you want to beeline alpha. I wouldn't. I'd do AH-wheel-pot to improve cow/sheep and get some cottages out.
-If you choose X1, send the worker to chop the forest once he's finished the mine. Build a worker at size 2 in the capital straight after the settler finishes to avoid regrowing onto unimproved tiles. Your first worker can improve the second city doing copper then AH resource. Lend corn to second city and produce worker with wet corn/green mine in cap.
Seraiel
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Working unimproved tiles in the beginning isn't so bad, you're suggesting to build way too many Workers.
Also: Food should be improved prior to Copper.
schadenfreude
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Arrgh! Did not see Giggles! You are correct, that makes the elephant spot a higher priority.
I was thinking of settling on the plains hill between the copper and wine. That will give you wine and sheep to grow, and put the copper in your first ring safe from Monty's clutches. Normally I would settle one east of that to get the fresh water, but I wouldn't want to lose the copper to Aztec culture. A good city to just build troops.
Will you take a shot at the Pyramids with that stone?
I think a second worker would be useful to finish the other mine and then improve the FP. That way the cap will have 5 improved tiles to work, and can either lend one out for 4-2 whip cycles or work them all for 6-3 cycles. Plus he's looking at all sorts of distant setting locations and workers commuting back and forth won't be feasible. The second worker can head out with the second settler.
I agree about food first, but he can't improve the cows as he doesn't have AH yet. That's why I suggested doing the copper and borrowing the corn in the meantime.
---
Regarding the Sumerians stealing all your elephants, I don't think it's likely. He might well settle the corn as his second city but at most he'll get the two northern phants in his second ring. You can always settle a marginal city near or on the southern elephant to claim the resource and run a few cottages for the capital even without food. More of a priority for me would be depriving Monty of metal and boxing him before killing him quick. His capital probably has lots of seafood and if so will make a nice GP farm.
Don't forget that Monarch is a relatively forgiving level and there are lots of viable ways to win. All of the people giving you advice in this thread would beat this map in their own way. Don't get put off or confused if there isn't a consensus of opinion as to what you should do. Decide on how you want to play the map and go for it, and you'll get advice here as to how to pursue your goal. What appeals? Do your prefer peaceful expansion or global massacre?
I have no idea. Never tried the Pyramids. I hope we can decide later when I have Masonry and a quarry on the stone.
Maybe we can crush 2, 3, 4 civs and then see how to finish the game - either crush the rest or proceed more peaceful
For the general approach I decided now to follow Seraiel's/Pangaea's plan to go for the Ivory first and tech quickly towards Alpha. Because I wouldn't do that if I were playing alone
My "normal" approach were to tech the basics myself (I certainly would go for AH and probably also Masonry before Writing) and don't trade them later and build cities close to the capital (one of the cities that I marked with X1,X2,X3). But I'm curious how to do it differently and how that works.But going for the Ivory city now raises questions for me: Settling at the coast as Pangaea suggested is agreed. The four coastal tiles might actually be nice with a lighthouse. Main questions for the moment:
- How do I bring the Settler safely to that spot? If I stop the 3rd warrior now to whip the Settler in 1 or 2 turns I have to either stop my plan to bring my first built Warrior to the Gold tile or I have to send out the Settler without escort. (The Warrior from the huts is too far away to support.) Am I safe at the moment because the game doesn't spawn Barbs yet? However, there are animals, so I think sending the Settler alone is a no-go, isn't it?
- What to do with my only Worker? Should he go to city 2 together with the Settler and start improving the North Corn? Or should he continue at the capital? My idea would be: Go to city 2 with the Settler and build a second Worker in the capital who will continue improving capital tiles then.
- What is the first thing that I should build in the second city? If I build the second Worker in the capital, I guess a Warrior or...? Also: I need a Monument to push the borders of city 2 and building a Monument requires Mysticism which I have to research at the some point. Or can I delay it until I can trade something for Mysticism?
Pangaea
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Doubt I would have settled the ivory either that early, but once Seraiel mentioned it, it seemed like a good idea to try to secure them.
Don't send a settler out unescorted. A real chance of an animal or barb getting a meaty dinner. You don't want that. The reason I said you can hold off on the warrior build is that you already have 3. Hopefully one of them is placed okay to go up there to fogbust. It will take a little while before the settler can get there, so it's not something that necessarily has to happen NOW.
If the capital has enough improved tiles to work at for instance size 3, which I think it does, then it's fine to send the lone worker up to city two to improve the corn. Since that city won't really be up to all that much yet, it's probably fine to start on a 2nd worker there. It won't take terribly long once the corn is improved.
Then the capital can for instance finish that warrior before staring on another settler. Typically you want to get out two settlers quickly once you hit size 3. Having only one worker for those 3 early cities is usually fine. Working some unimproved tiles in the beginning isn't the end of the world. It's much more important to get early city locations. Workers you can sort out later, cities you can't sort out later without war. You look squeezed for room here with a possibly landlocked Monty and Mao or whoever it was in the NW possibly settling towards you (jungle means he may not). Probably somebody in the east too, so then you need to secure some sites.
Urgency probably isn't as essential on Monarch, but it doesn't hurt to get into good habits for the higher difficulty levels at an early stage. With posting games here and getting feedback, I'm sure you'll be winning at Immortal in no time
Don't send a settler out unescorted. A real chance of an animal or barb getting a meaty dinner. You don't want that. The reason I said you can hold off on the warrior build is that you already have 3. Hopefully one of them is placed okay to go up there to fogbust. It will take a little while before the settler can get there, so it's not something that necessarily has to happen NOW.
If the capital has enough improved tiles to work at for instance size 3, which I think it does, then it's fine to send the lone worker up to city two to improve the corn. Since that city won't really be up to all that much yet, it's probably fine to start on a 2nd worker there. It won't take terribly long once the corn is improved.
Then the capital can for instance finish that warrior before staring on another settler. Typically you want to get out two settlers quickly once you hit size 3. Having only one worker for those 3 early cities is usually fine. Working some unimproved tiles in the beginning isn't the end of the world. It's much more important to get early city locations. Workers you can sort out later, cities you can't sort out later without war. You look squeezed for room here with a possibly landlocked Monty and Mao or whoever it was in the NW possibly settling towards you (jungle means he may not). Probably somebody in the east too, so then you need to secure some sites.
Urgency probably isn't as essential on Monarch, but it doesn't hurt to get into good habits for the higher difficulty levels at an early stage. With posting games here and getting feedback, I'm sure you'll be winning at Immortal in no time
pandamancer
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I am certain that barbs dont spawn fast in monarch. Also gilgamesh borders clears the fog of war near the area. Assuming the settler dont get mauled before settling, that spot is yours to the taking. Pls escort it with a warrior or spawn bust SE of the northern corn
Yes, moving the worker to the north is a good idea, build roads to hasten the settlers movement
If pottery is researched then city 2 can go for granary else warrior. Dont worry about monuments yet. True, gilgamesh is creative but settling with the corn and phants in your 1st ring discourages him to settle near you in the meantime. If you review seraiel's plan, you are beelining alpha. That means mysticism will be obtained from trade.
btw, elephants+catapults OWN the ai even he has metals
Although you should be aware that monty ALWAYS declares war on annoyed so we want to be prepared before that happensI had only 2 (one built, one from the huts). But I have whipped the Settler now und then finished the 3rd warrior.
Don't have The Wheel yet, so I can't build roads. But I've moved Settler and Worker together in a stack anyway and the Warrior went 2 or 3 turns earlier up front.
Turn 37 - 2520 BC
- Revolted to Slavery
- The Wheel in research
- During turn 36 Monty revolted to Slavery and Charlemagne founded second city
- Interrupted production of the 3rd warrior and put a Settler into the queue
- Settler 2-pop whipped, 3rd warrior finished after that
- Stopped moving the 1st Warrior to the Gold tile, returned and moved him towards the northern corn
- Worker finished mine, invested 1 turn into chopping (to wait for the Settler)
- Moved Settler and Worker in a stack behind the Warrior towards northern corn
- Gilgamesh pushed borders !
- Southeast territory explored - attractive food supply (Crabs + Sheep + Deer could feed a city)
- 2nd Warrior will most likely be attacked by a lion next turn. He is on a forest tile (50% defense bonus) -> Cross fingers
Now 2 questions before I proceed:
- With Gilgamesh's expanded borders does the settling plan change? I could still settle on the coastal tile 1SW of the northern corn. However I would directly touch Gilgamesh's borders. Is it perhaps better now to settle at my original X4 to keep a bit distance to Giggles?
- How do I proceed with production in the capital now (see second screenshot)? This is one of the "micro management" situations where I never really know what's best. I've put a second Worker into the queue (can still change, no hammer invested yet). But by doing this the city can't grow and I can't whip the Worker. Shouldn't I better build something else (warrior, barracks?) so that the city would regrow to size 4 and after that start a new Worker and 2-pop-whip him? I'm not sure however if the unhappiness from the last whip would have disappeared then. How do I manage and time all that correctly?
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Seraiel
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Whipping the Worker is more efficient, but if you lack Workerturns (looks like it, because you have only two improved tiles) , slow-building the Worker will make you get it earlier.
To calculate the effectiveness of a whip, you simply need to divide the number of
needed for the city to regrow through the number of 
. At small sizes, whipping will get you more than it costs , and once you get a Granary, the amount to regrow will be cut in half (making the Granary the most important building of all) .
To calculate the effectiveness of a whip, you simply need to divide the number of
needed for the city to regrow through the number of . At small sizes, whipping will get you more than it costs , and once you get a Granary, the amount to regrow will be cut in half (making the Granary the most important building of all) .
Pangaea
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You could still settle up there, but considering Gilgamesh's capital is just NW, it may be pushing it a nudge too far. After all, if the goal is just to secure Ivory, you can settle the city further south, like along the river. The downside to that is that the city lacks food and won't be great. But it will have ivory aplenty. However, if you opt to not grab that corn, I wouldn't settle the ivory city next, as it should be a secure spot given the jungle 'buffer' to the north, and you want a good city as the 2nd city, so it can genuinely offer something positive to your empire.
When I see maps laid out like that I always want to block off land and then backfill, but when Monty is the neighbour, that can have rather negative consequences knocking down your door
That said, it may not be a bad idea to settle a couple of cities to your west to grab that piece of land, and then block off to your east as well, maybe grabbing gold along the way. Then you can backfill to your south at your leisure, as nobody else can settle there if both other paths are landblocked.
When I see maps laid out like that I always want to block off land and then backfill, but when Monty is the neighbour, that can have rather negative consequences knocking down your door
That said, it may not be a bad idea to settle a couple of cities to your west to grab that piece of land, and then block off to your east as well, maybe grabbing gold along the way. Then you can backfill to your south at your leisure, as nobody else can settle there if both other paths are landblocked.
Pangaea
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Another heavy (but quick) dotmap
Getting the Monty-copper probably isn't terribly realistic unless you go for it first, as I can imagine Monty will get slavery early (if hasn't already, sorry if you mentioned it), and then settle his 2nd city there.
Suppose there is an AI close to that east wheat, so getting gold may not be terribly realistic either, as you don't really want to trek that far out so early.
In the south you can settle in different ways, so this is just a suggestion. But if you count up all those spots, you actually have 11 cities. Some fairly crap ones in the tundra, but cities nonetheless, and they have food, which is important. There are also four cities around your capital, and all can help you grow cottages, and then the capital takes them over when it grows big enough.
Perhaps some thing this looks like a bit of a city spam, but it's important to learn that you don't need every city to have max size. These cities won't reach max size to work 20 tiles anyway, and if you go down the war path they'll be whipped a lot. So having much overlap makes good sense in most cases. Easier to defend, easier to improve with fewer workers, less maintenance, fewer roads, and more citizens for a small(er) area.
Edit: Alternatively you can put the sheep-block on the plains hill. It'll be one off coast, which kind of blows, but if Monty attacks you there, it will be easier to defend.
Getting the Monty-copper probably isn't terribly realistic unless you go for it first, as I can imagine Monty will get slavery early (if hasn't already, sorry if you mentioned it), and then settle his 2nd city there.
Suppose there is an AI close to that east wheat, so getting gold may not be terribly realistic either, as you don't really want to trek that far out so early.
In the south you can settle in different ways, so this is just a suggestion. But if you count up all those spots, you actually have 11 cities. Some fairly crap ones in the tundra, but cities nonetheless, and they have food, which is important. There are also four cities around your capital, and all can help you grow cottages, and then the capital takes them over when it grows big enough.
Perhaps some thing this looks like a bit of a city spam, but it's important to learn that you don't need every city to have max size. These cities won't reach max size to work 20 tiles anyway, and if you go down the war path they'll be whipped a lot. So having much overlap makes good sense in most cases. Easier to defend, easier to improve with fewer workers, less maintenance, fewer roads, and more citizens for a small(er) area.
Edit: Alternatively you can put the sheep-block on the plains hill. It'll be one off coast, which kind of blows, but if Monty attacks you there, it will be easier to defend.
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pandamancer
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Stick to the plan. You want that corn in the first ring. Gilgamesh cant do anything to hurt you.
once 2nd city is up, improve the corn asap. Dont build roads until corn is up
once 2nd city is up, improve the corn asap. Dont build roads until corn is up
Seraiel
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I also wanted to write that you should settle the Corn just like planned. Cities without food aren't good, cities with Corn however are great.
Also be aware, that if you go for Elepults, you'll most probably only have the time to settle like 3-4 cities 'til you reach Construction. Settling as many cities as pangaea marked is morely something for a Cuirrassier-rush or even a Cavalry-rush.
Also be aware, that if you go for Elepults, you'll most probably only have the time to settle like 3-4 cities 'til you reach Construction. Settling as many cities as pangaea marked is morely something for a Cuirrassier-rush or even a Cavalry-rush.
Pangaea
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Yes, if you're going for early war, you can't spam cities like that. Then it's all about getting a small handful of cities, teching hard to the needed techs, whip out units, and kill somebody, and get more cities that way, and more developed cities at that. The dotmap was more to show what can be plotted down on that piece of land. But you can backfill your land later anyway.
- With Gilgamesh's expanded borders does the settling plan change? I could still settle on the coastal tile 1SW of the northern corn. However I would directly touch Gilgamesh's borders. Is it perhaps better now to settle at my original X4 to keep a bit distance to Giggles?
- How do I proceed with production in the capital now (see second screenshot)? This is one of the "micro management" situations where I never really know what's best. I've put a second Worker into the queue (can still change, no hammer invested yet). But by doing this the city can't grow and I can't whip the Worker. Shouldn't I better build something else (warrior, barracks?) so that the city would regrow to size 4 and after that start a new Worker and 2-pop-whip him? I'm not sure however if the unhappiness from the last whip would have disappeared then. How do I manage and time all that correctly?
-Build the city on the coast as planned because it can eventually work 4 coast for commerce and/or 2 elephants for production. Btw Gilga will have pushed borders on turn 25 on account of being CREative, but you only got to see that as the warrior approached the city site. First build in the new city should be warrior or barracks as granary is still unavailable. Improve corn first, then chop forest into granary before thinking about the road back to the cap. It should time nicely with the research of pottery.
-It's relatively easy to count the turns for a city's growth and make an informed decision. A city needs 20 + size*2 food to grow, so 24 from size 2 to 3 (20 +2*2) and 26 from size 3 to 4 (20 +3*2). From the screen shot I would guess that there is 15 or 16 food in the bar and can see that the city is producing a surplus of 9
/ turn.That means it will grow to size 3 in 1 turn and then to size 4 in 3 turns, presuming you work the farms and mine for 2 turns (+16 food) and the farms + fp for 1 turn (+10 food). Yes?
It's also relatively easy to work out production and therefore how long it will take to build your worker.
At size 2 the city is producing 9
and 1 so 10 "production" per turn. (Don't forget that food counts towards settler and worker production). 60/10 = 6, so the worker will be done in 6 turns. The 7 overflow from whipping the settler isn't enough to shave a turn off.At size 3 the city is producing 8
and 4 so 12 production. 60/12 = 5, so the worker will be done in 5 turns. As it will take a turn to grow back to size 3, you will also have you worker in 6 turns, but have 5 extra 
from having worked the mine, making this a better option.At size 4 the city can whip the worker 1 turn after growing because you need to have started building the worker to not incur a "dry whipping" penalty. The city will work 2 farms, mine and fp for 9
and 4 or 13 production per turn. It will take 4 turns to grow to size 4 and 1 turn to start the worker, so you can whip him on the 6th turn. With this option you get 26 overflow from 2*13 production having gone towards the worker at the cost of 10 more turns unhappiness and going back to size 2. Put this into the barracks and it's converted into 52 due to your AGG trait, or enough to finish it in one turn.From this it's clear you don't want to build the worker at size 2 (as I had previously suggested
). Far better is to regrow to size 4 whilst building a warrior, 2-whip the worker and put the overflow into the next settler or the barracks (or ideally the granary, but you won't have finished pottery in time). The city will have 12 turns of whip anger (2 turns at +2 and then 10 more at +1) but this will not be enough to make the city unhappy.That's a lot to take in, so ask if you want clarification on something. It might seem complicated at first but it gets easier the more you play
Seraiel
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I never do maths of that detail during my games, and still, I win Deity with very competetive dates. I also would have definately slow-built the Worker in the capital, just because slow-building it is faster than growing to size 4 to 2-pop-whip him. This would also reduce the whipping anger in that city, so it would have no whip-timer once it whips the next Settler.
Settling the city at the coast though is good, as FIN-coast are good tiles once the city has a Lighthouse. No idea why the X is at 1 off the coast. Maybe it's because otherwise, the distance to Giggles capital would be too small.
Settling the city at the coast though is good, as FIN-coast are good tiles once the city has a Lighthouse. No idea why the X is at 1 off the coast. Maybe it's because otherwise, the distance to Giggles capital would be too small.
I thought the same before counting, but it turns out both take 6 turns, so here regrow then 2-whip is considerably better as it gives the chance to build another warrior, gives a few extra
and best of all 26 overflow. I think that's worth the whip anger, especially given the happy cap will be 6 if the new warrior stays to garrison.
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At size 2 the city is producing 9
At size 3 the city is producing 8
At size 4 the city can whip the worker 1 turn after growing because you need to have started building the worker to not incur a "dry whipping" penalty. The city will work 2 farms, mine and fp for 9
Nice math there kevtrev. I never do stuff like that while playing either, but I assume things like this goes on all the time when playing SGOTM and the like. In this case, however, I think it's fairly easy to "feel" that a worker at size 2 isn't great because there are some good tiles to work beyond size 2 also. Plus, it is usually a good idea to regrow on something after whipping. With decent overflow that can be put into a worker or settler for one turn, before starting a warrior or whatever to regrow, then go back to the worker/settler after a little regrowth.
Pangaea
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I thought the same before counting, but it turns out both take 6 turns, so here regrow then 2-whip is considerably better as it gives the chance to build another warrior, gives a few extra
Still not sure I'd go with that option. Early on one can't whip very often due to happy cap, and a new worker isn't the most essential thing ever. I'd probably prefer to slowbuild something to grow a little, for instance the warrior, and then queue up another settler. If you manage to grow to 4, then you can whip another settler instead. Settlers this early is more important than a 2nd worker in my mind.
People play differently though. I have noticed that AZ often gets out a few workers early, and often does pre-Math chops into various things. Personally I try to prevent pre-Math chops and prefer to get out a few settlers very early on.
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