Improving on Monarch level

[Seraiel]

I thought the same before counting, but it turns out both take 6 turns, so here regrow then 2-whip is considerably better as it gives the chance to build another warrior, gives a few extra and best of all 26 overflow. I think that's worth the whip anger, especially given the happy cap will be 6 if the new warrior stays to garrison.

I needed to calculate this myself, and you're right, the whip is more efficient and doesn't lose Workerturns. Even without a Granary it's like this, because 22 (or 24) translate to 30 , which is a great gain of about 30-40%.

Yet, he has strong Food but no extra Happiness in this game, so whipping anger must be dealt with very carefully. From my experience, cities having so much Food already stack whipping anger even if they 3-pop-whip, so I believe that the 2-pop-Worker-whip is still worse.

 

[kevtrev]

If you manage to grow to 4, then you can whip another settler instead. Settlers this early is more important than a 2nd worker in my mind.

Yes I agree that the settler is more urgent than the worker, especially given the western copper spot might deprive Monty of metal and the eastern gold spot has 2 happiness resources and good early commerce. Both are priorities. Plus the cap has 3 improved tiles and a FP to work so fine for now. I'd regrow to size 4 on a warrior then 2-whip the settler. That (I believe) would take 8 turns so time nicely with the existing whip anger (and possibly the research of pottery for OF into a granary?)

 

[Todelotti]

Turn 38 - 2480 BC

ARRRGGGHHH!!!
(see screenshot)

It's still my turn and I can move my Settler (he is on the Ivory), however I would need 3 turns until settling at the coastal tiles. And I guess that Gilgamesh aims for exactly the same tile, so most likely he will settle before me.

What should I do:

- Abandon the whole plan to settle at the northern corn?
- Continue to go north and hope Gilgamesh aims for something else?
- SIP now? Or step 1SW or 1E or 1SE or ? and settle there (with poor food supply though)?

 

[Pangaea]

AIs usually try to get as many resources as possible in the BFC, so I won't be surprised if he wants to settler 1S of current position to grab all ivory too. The AI doesn't care if the food is in outer ring, nor would it matter much here anyway as he's creative.

Perhaps you can stay where the settler is now, and see what Gilgamesh does between turns. If he settles there, then it's fine as the capital will soon expand borders and include the ivory. You can then improve it and get access to elephants, even if no city can work the tile. If he does move S to try to grab all the ivory, you are open to settling different places before he's able to found the city. If you for instance move into the jungle to try to move north (which is a pointless endeavour because Gilga will settle either there he is or 1S), then you can move back to the river and settle there next turn.

Wait for more responses though. In any case, it sucks that he got out there so quickly, wading through the jungle. Maybe an indication he has crap land in his other directions.

Because he sees your settler now, he will may well settle where he is, because I think the AI is more likely to settle quickly if he sees other settlers nearby.

 

[rah]

Or step 1SW or 1E or 1SE or ?

If this is your option. I'd sugest 1S so at least you'd get the extra hammer since you'll be lacking food you probably wouldn't be working all three Eles anyway.

 

[Todelotti]

I'd sugest 1S so at least you'd get the extra hammer since you'll be lacking food you probably wouldn't be working all three Eles anyway.

Hm, I like this idea! I've attached a screenshot and marked that candidate spot as X5. I could farm the flood plain at the capital (would also help to irrigate the east corn after CS) and work that tile. Then farm 1W of X5 and later after border push farm 1S2W of X5. Maybe also farm one of the grasslands north of the capital. I can also camp the Ivory soon because I have Hunting.

BTW: Mansa Musa is very close to the Gold as you can see on the screenshot.

 

[kevtrev]

I like Pangaea's plan. If he settles your original spot, abandon that city site. If he continues moving south to get all 3 elephants in his BFC, settle on the riverside elephants to ensure the resource for your elepult war.

 

[kevtrev]

I could farm the flood plain at the capital (would also help to irrigate the east corn after CS) and work that tile. Then farm 1W of X5 and later after border push farm 1S2W of X5. Maybe also farm one of the grasslands north of the capital. I can also camp the Ivory soon because I have Hunting.

If you end up building at X4, I would cottage the capital's tiles and farm the tiles 1W and 2W1S of X4. The capital wants as many developed cottages as possible to maximize the effectiveness of Bureaucracy. This often means having helper cities work these tiles until CS so the cap can work the better/higher yield tiles in the early game. With 2 grassland farms the X4 city will have 4 surplus, so be able to work the 2 ivory tiles, the riverside green mine and the plains cottage and stagnate at size 6. That is fine for a helper city. It can build a granary, barracks and then troops.

 

[FlyingSwan]

I like Pangaea's plan. If he settles your original spot, abandon that city site. If he continues moving south to get all 3 elephants in his BFC, settle on the riverside elephants to ensure the resource for your elepult war.

cant quite work out where your settler is right now,but I would be reluctant to settle ON riverside elephants as when improved they will give you 3 commerce.I may need to take another look,but what about 1E of riverside elephants as this would make a good city for working cottages in the capitol-including the FP for food,and it wouldnt kill off a city for working the clam seafood tile.edit-not that you would by settling on the elephants-but 1tile off the coast when the alternative is more green tiles to the east seems like a no brainer,plus a city 1SE of the clams can work those sea tiles more effectivly with a light house(not as though a city settled on the phants ever would work them)a potential Moao statues city as you have stone-but this city is a backfill city of NO priority atm.

Nice to see you have copper for beserkers

edit-X3 looks an excellant city site too,as will another city to incorporate the copper and the cow somehow.In which order to settle after the elephant site-id probably suggest the copper one 1st in case mansa gets in your face-and with giggles so close you may have to fight a defencive war so axemen could be needed-but you will get the copper in your culture on turn 51 anyway.

@gywnnja-your right about toku not having "horrible" starting techs,ofc he can research pottery off the bat,but you will agree they arnt the best,esp if you dont start coastal.

Im thinking farm the FP if you do decide to settle east of the elephants-that soughts out your irrigation problem for the dry corn and the phant citys food problem-which could become an excellant production/heroic epic city when borrowing the right tiles from the capitol- grassland hills/stone.

 

[schadenfreude]

Hm, I like this idea! I've attached a screenshot and marked that candidate spot as X5. I could farm the flood plain at the capital (would also help to irrigate the east corn after CS) and work that tile. Then farm 1W of X5 and later after border push farm 1S2W of X5. Maybe also farm one of the grasslands north of the capital. I can also camp the Ivory soon because I have Hunting.

BTW: Mansa Musa is very close to the Gold as you can see on the screenshot.

I don't think the AI understands when it is in a race for a spot. I have seen them have a lead for a resource to settle but lose it by one turn because they only have eyes for THE perfect spot.

I would use your one turn of movement to move one North. If Giggles settles, the worst that happens is your settler gets bounced back to where you are now and you can still settle on the plains elephant. But if he moves in trying to get the perfect location, you can settle one south of X4, and get the food with a border pop. I don't think getting on X4 is possible. That ship has sailed. Interesting that your perfect location is X4, but his perfect location (because of his culture) is one South of X4.

Getting Mansa's gold looks doubtful. His culture will envelop the gold with his next pop. It might be better to let him settle there and take his city with your jumbos.

 

[Todelotti]

...you can settle one south of X4, and get the food with a border pop...

Hm, but at 1S of X4 I will really only have that single grassland tile (+a second grassland if I chop the forest) as food supply for quite a long time. I can't build a farm there and a border push isn't going to happen before I build a monument and wait 10 turns. And for the monument I have to research Mysticism which isn't really on the tech priority plan. Even if I do that with higher prio, Gilgamesh might settle somewhere north of the corn and get it into his borders quicker with his creative trait.

At the moment I'm really inclined to give up to get the northern corn and create a helper city instead without a great growth perspective but that secures the Ivory at least and can have some farms at the river and help the capital to grow.

I'm also not sure if waiting a turn to see what Giggles does makes sense. Why not just move NOW 1S or 1SE of my Settler's current location and hit "Settle"? Waiting for Giggles' move looks just like a lost turn to me, doesn't it?

EDIT: One argument however for trying 1S of X4 might be to drive Gilgamesh away from settling towards South at all. But I'm not sure if that's worth a probably poor city. I could imagine it's better to prepare for conflicts anyway as Mansa is coming closer from the East, Giggles from the North and most likely Monty from the West soon.

 

[schadenfreude]

Hm, but at 1S of X4 I will really only have that single grassland tile (+a second grassland if I chop the forest) as food supply for quite a long time. I can't build a farm there and a border push isn't going to happen before I build a monument and wait 10 turns. And for the monument I have to research Mysticism which isn't really on the tech priority plan. Even if I do that with higher prio, Gilgamesh might settle somewhere north of the corn and get it into his borders quicker with his creative trait.

At the moment I'm really inclined to give up to get the northern corn and create a helper city instead without a great growth perspective but that secures the Ivory at least and can have some farms at the river and help the capital to grow.

I'm also not sure if waiting a turn to see what Giggles does makes sense. Why not just move NOW 1S or 1SE of my Settler's current location and hit "Settle"? Waiting for Giggles' move looks just like a lost turn to me, doesn't it?

It is true you won't get the food until after a border pop. And possibly not even then, if Giggle's settles say just north or east of the corn. On the other hand, it will secure you a bunch of elephants (each which you could trade to a distant non threat for up to three other resources), and Giggles MAY decide to settle way out of the way for some other unknown resource (perhaps unseen gold or copper). Chopping out a monument or library isn't a big deal. But Giggle's culture can be dominating early on. He will probably want a city SOMEWHERE to use that corn. Tough decisions...

I thought you only had one movement left. Or maybe I misunderstood because the jungle prevents you from moving to X4 in one turn.

edit: one way you might possibly secure the corn with a border pop is research masonry (you will anyway), research mysticism (will be quick for financial Ragnar) and chop Stonehedge in your elephant city. 8 culture should keep that corn in your borders. With stone quarried, two chops should do get it done. Unless there is someone else who is already building, has stone or is industrious. You have two workers which will really help if you decide it is a risk worth taking.

 

[Pangaea]

The idea about holding off for a turn is that it may 'force' Giggles into settling where he is instead of going 1S which is probably his intention. If he settles where he is, you don't need to settle a poor city there to grab ivory, because your capital will soon expand borders and grab the southernmost ivory anyway, and with that in Giggles' third ring you should probably be able to keep it. Settling such a poor 2nd city really isn't ideal, especially when you can get the resources you want to settle there for via other means anyway (capital border expansion).

You can't move into the jungle and settle this turn, as that loses the 2nd movement point.

When plotting a rush, you want a few good cities with food so you can whip out units for the war. Therefore it's better to not settle a poor city to grab those ivory tiles if you don't have to.

 

[FlyingSwan]

ok,if im reading this right,your settler is where the warrior is.If you move your settler 1 south now,then you can settle 1st nxt turn as giggles will have to move into a jungle.You settle 1E of the ivory,then that will force giggles city back as he cant settle within 2 tiles of your city.Job done-Its going to slow his city settle down by at least 2 turns whatever happens.Only thing is he,s a bit of a loose cannon when it comes to early war(attacks at pleased iirc)so garrisons will be needed in the ivory city.

 

[pandamancer]

^ No, it is not. His settler is with his worker. I think you need to abandon the plan of settling at X4 and settle at X5 (or 1E of X5) instead as the reasons already stated above. Sucks but that's life

The spot 1S of the X4 is a trap. The north corn resource will be taken by giggles whether you like it or not.

@Todelotti: You can post a save from time to time to avoid confusion. Also, run binary research once city 2 is up.

 

[Seraiel]

Don't be angry, AI's settling where you wanted to settle only means, that they at least found your future city in a good spot [emoji6]

Simply go for the next good spot (probably the western Copper) . You'll either get Ivory through your capital or you can trade for it from Giggles. Just make sure to get him on pleased. [emoji2]

 

[Todelotti]

@Seraiel: I had read your last post too late and already continued. Good thing is: If I had moved the Settler towards the West Copper the same kind of collision probably had happened with Monty's Settler (see the following events...)

Lots of good ideas here and all have their Pro and Contra! But I had to decide now and went for FlyingSwan's original proposal to settle 1E of the River-Ivory with the idea to farm the flood plain to feed the second city.

Interesting thing is that Gilgamesh's Settler retreated to the tile 1N of his position and settled there.

@Pangaea: I was curious what would have happened if I had moved my Settler 1N into the Jungle and reloaded the save. And indeed Gilgamesh settled then where he was (i.e. 1S of the location where his city is now) as you have guessed. But I don't want to cheat and live now with my decision


Turn 46 - 2160 BC

- Second city founded, Warrior in production there
- Warrior survived Lion, Scout survived Wolf
- Another warrior finished, Settler in queue
- Judaism founded in a distant land
- Montezuma founded Tenochtitlan "in a distant land" (however it's not "distant", it's towards my direction!)
- Mansa Musa adopts Organized Religion
- Charlemagne built Great Wall
- Gilgamesh's second city pushed borders, touching my borders now
- Mansa Musa founded Djenne in a distant land (also not so "distant", see screenshot)
- Pottery finished, Writing in research now (9 turns to go)
- Worker finished farm on the flood plain

The turn 46 is half-finished. I can still move the Worker and whip the Settler now.

Current status is:

- Settler can be whipped now and then start to move at the next turn
- Units: 1 Scout, 1 Worker, 4 Warriors
- Buildings: None
- Improvements: 3 Farms (the 2 corn tiles and the FP), 1 Mine
- 11 of 15 hammers invested into the next Warrior (I interrupted when the capital had size 4 and put the Settler into production)
- 4 turns to go for a Warrior in Uppsala
- I can't see Monty's second city yet (probably at the coast) but from his borders it's obvious that he has his fingers on the West copper.
- Not sure if I still should aim for the Gold as Mansa is close there and I doubt I can afford another poor-food city

Main questions now:

- Where does the third city go? I would consider somewhere around X2/X3 to block Monty (preferably X2 to secure the sheep?). Or towards East (around X1)? Or maybe in the Southeast around crabs/sheep?
- What should my Worker do next? I'd say a Cottage 1W of the farmed FP or do I need that tile possibly for another farm for Uppsala as I don't see any other option to farm something and improve food supply for this city before the borders get pushed (not soon)? On the other hand I really don't need more food for the capital and would normally prefer a cottage there. Or should I prioritize connecting the cities?
- I guess I should consider whipping a Worker when the capital is at size 4 again as my only Worker starts to get overloaded with 3 cities. During the regrow phase I'd build a Granary (and maybe chop it partially).
- Defense? Is that enough what I have? Can I really wait with Archery until I have Alpha and can trade it?

 

[Pangaea]

Settling the city there was a mistake when Giggles settles where he was earlier. Like I wrote at least twice, your capital will soon expand borders, and will then include the riverside ivory in your cultural borders, even without that food-starved city. Only settle cities like that to grab important resources (or alternatively with biology farms or a food corporation). Here you didn't need to do that.

Monty has settled on top of the copper, so no chance to get that. Thankfully you have another copper. Probably best to settle there. Think I'd settle 1N of your X1 spot. Again, capital will expand borders and therefore include the copper there, so you don't need that in 1st ring. And it saves the forest by not settling on it. Easier to make these decisions with access to a savegame though.

You're squeezed for room here with four AIs so close, so getting four cities and then gearing up for Elepult war is probably best. Unfortunately that 2nd city won't contribute much without food, but effectively 3 cities can still do the work I guess.

 

[Seraiel]

Setlle x2 at 1S.

 

[pandamancer]

Move back your warrior near the x1 spot to escort your next settler. Next spot can be x1 (you killed a forest and more desert hills but earlier access to copper) or 1N of x1. Dont antagonize monty yet. Dont worry about archery, once copper is online you will have axes.

city 4 can be x3 or 2W of the gold spot. I might be feeling adventurous here though but getting the gold gives us another resource which might help in our whipping problem later. Thoughts guys?

Btw, pls post a save...we are interested in the game log