Improving on Monarch level

[Seraiel]

Research: I'd go Physics next, to get the free GS. Use your GS and your GA to start a Golden Age, finish the Taj Mahal, and with getting the GS from Phyics, you already have the GPs for the next GA.

Builorder of your cities should morely be:

Lighthouse
Granary
Forge
Library

and all buildings past that, are situational. If you need , build Harbours and Grocers. I don't think you need Markets, and I probably wouldn't build Banks either but prefer producing Wealth and keeping the Slider at 100% if possible.

Civics for the GA are like last time, except that you now got State Propert on top.

Ironworks belongs into a good Hammer-city, that has a superb river, because then you can build a Levee in it, and Levees raise the base- of the city, so with multiplying (Factory + PP) , that's really a lot. The IW-city should also be completely workshopped / watermilled.

Kremlin is usually the most powerful Wonder in modern CIV, but I don't think you'll run Slavery any longer, and rushing via US is too expensive, so it can be, that the Kremlin is of no use in your game, as you try a Space Race without Corporations.

BKs last city should be conquered, but only when you can get your troops safely to it. If you don't conquer it, all conquered cities will have because of WYTJOM. And by all means, don't vassal him! If you'd do that, you'd get combined diplomatic stance, so if you're friendly with someone but he doesn't like BK, he maybe only cautious or even annoyed. Vassals are good, if they still have many cities, like peace-vassals in special.

If your Works are searching Work btw. you can let them build tons of Windmills and also Workshops + Watermills. Your next target past Physics will likely be Electricity, and then, WMs are really awesome.

 

[Todelotti]

Research: I'd go Physics next, to get the free GS. Use your GS and your GA to start a Golden Age, finish the Taj Mahal, and with getting the GS from Phyics, you already have the GPs for the next GA.

Ah, of course, the free GS from Physics would be great for the GA! However, one thing: Physics needs Astronomy. Mansa finishes Astro in 3 turns. I could research Steam Power on 0% slider during that time and collect some money. Then I could trade Economics+Replacable Parts or Steel or Communism for Astronomy with Mansa. But if Mansa goes Physics as well it will be a race of a parallel research. Shall we do it this way or does that change your plan?

...build tons of Windmills and also Workshops + Watermills. Your next target past Physics will likely be Electricity, and then, WMs are really awesome.

Destroying mines for windmills is OK? Looking at my map I almost have no free hill available anymore. They either already have some windmills or they have mines (the majority of hills has mines, especially the conquered hills).

 

[Seraiel]

I think you got far more research power than Mansa, so if you got , he should never be able to out-tech you to Physics.

And yes, destroying Mines is sometimes good, because they give so much when one has Electricity. The only city wanting mines is the IW city, and those also only, when the IW city can grow to size 20-25 without problems.

 

[Todelotti]

OK, I started the Golden Age now and changed civics to Caste, Pacifism and State Property. Taj Mahal needs 6 turns now (city shrinks slowly but won't lose a pop).

I have to schedule the specialists now. We have this half-baked Great Merchant in Birka from the last GA. Do we want to finish him? We can create him in 5 turns without losing a pop. For all other cities (except capital?) that have enough food I would only run scientists to get the most beakers from REP, is that right? Or are we interested in other specialists as well? Engineers are not unlimited by Caste System but I could try to create an engineer in my HE city (which also has the Mids) because the city already has invested 395/700 GPP into the GP. But it's not certain that it will work during the GA and I have to mix in other GP types to even have a chance, so it will drop the probability for the GE (which is 72% now) and will be a gamble.

 

[Seraiel]

If you get a lucky GE, go Railroads and found Mining Inc.
Even before that, take a Merchant, go Medicine and found Sushi.

If not, continue to run State Property 'til the end of the game.

In GAs: Every city that can produce 1 GP 'til the game is almost finished, should do so. GSs are very good, because most techs can be bulbed with them, but Trademissions from GMs are also very nice to keep the slider at 100%.

Don't forget to set yourself a Timer on the last turn of the GA, so that you can switch Civics again, what is not needed in this special case as I see it.

And build tons of Workshops and if a city is low on food, Watermills. A grassland Workshop with Caste and SP gives 2 , so is neutral, but creates 4 ! With a GA, those are then 5 . You can build over existing improvements, except the Cottages of your capital.

 

[Todelotti]

Quick question in between: Does it make sense to settle the following 3 spots? They are all coastal and have a sea food resource. They could at least work the FIN coast tiles. The first one also has room for watermills and the second for windmills. Ramesses is exploring around the third spot, I wouldn't be surprised if he sends a Settler soon. I don't know if it makes sense to settle so late and if the Settler investment will pay off over the rest of the game (which will still take quite a bit):

 

[Seraiel]

Yes, you can settle them, unless you need your resources urgently for something else. FIN-coast are good tiles, and as long as the cities got food, I see nothing speaking against it

 

[Todelotti]

Turn 209 - 1490 AD

- Astronomy traded with Mansa
- Physics finished (before Mansa), got the free GS, Mansa changed research after that to Rifling
- Electricity finished
- Got the Taj Mahal, Golden Age extended by 8 turns
- Golden Age will still last 5 turns
- Built 3 Frigates to get rid of the Caravel fleet that protects Charlemagnes last island city
- Zara changed civic to Emancipation, first demands for emancipation in some of my cities
- 2 new cities founded (3rd will follow next turn)
- Status of available Great Persons:
--- 2 Great Scientists
--- 2 Great Merchants (3rd in 3 turns (79% GM chance))
--- 1 Great Spy

Questions:

- What is the next tech to research? Mansa will have Rifling in 3 turns, so we don't need to research that.

- Shall we extend the Golden Age by another 8 turns with GS+GM+GSpy?

- What about founding a Corporation? Do we need or want that at all? It would require to leave State Property, is that right? We would have a GM for Sushi. However, missing techs to research are: Constitution->Corporation and then Biology->Medicine (or the other way around). (Zara has Constitution but doesn't trade it.)

- What about the emancipation demand? Do we have to leave Caste System and adopt Emancipation at some point? The unhappiness isn't a serious problem yet, except in 2 or 3 of Burger Kings cities. But that problem should disappear when his last city is conquered (hopefully in 2 or 3 turns). Converting Zara via a spy won't work probably because we have 0 spy points collected on him (every point went into Mansa to follow his research).

Current tech tree:

 

[Pangaea]

Since you lack a few techs to be able to do Assembly Line for factories and coal plants goodiness, I'd probably go Biology at this point, especially if you have a nice forested spot for the National Park. More food from farms is great too, particularly if you're not going with corporations.

SP shines best in combination with Caste System, so don't go out of that unless you absolutely have to. Usually in my games it hasn't become that dire. I'd rather run the culture slider a bit instead of going with Emancipation.

Try to convince Zara to change civic when trading techs with him. Sometimes it won't work due to "We don't want to deal with the unhappiness", but hopefully you won't get that message.

 

[Todelotti]

Hm, for the National Park the only place that has enough forests/jungle is this one, I believe:

It would have 7 forests in BFC if I don't build a mine on Uranium. However, I had to found a new city on the red circle, that needs to grow for some time and could only get food by borrowing the corn tile from Eridu (which might cause food problems in Eridu then). Is the National Park still worth it to go for such a new city? I've never built one, I have no clue...

Regarding Zara: For some reason he doesn't have an "Adopt" section in his trade screen at all. It seems I can't even ask him to leave Emancipation.

 

[Todelotti]

Turn 214 - 1520 AD

- War with Charlemagne is over, the rest of the game will be peace with the remaining 3 civilizations, I guess (Ramesses and Mansa are both friendly and Zara is pleased)
- Biology finished
- Traded Physics for Rifling + 530 Gold with Mansa
- Steam Power finished
- Golden Age extended with GS+GM+GSpy, will still last 8 turns
- Ironworks finished
- I'm settling the National Park City that I mentioned in my last post, just for fun...

Questions:

- Constitution appears to be a research bottleneck at the moment. Zara doesn't trade it and Mansa is going for Military Tradition (4 turns). To start with Factories I need Constitution->Corporation->Assembly Line. Can we delay Constitution further and continue research with something else hoping that either Zara will trade it soon or Mansa research it? Or is it better to research Constitution myself now (just 1 turn)? I could also invest one of my two Great Merchants for Constitution but it's less than half a turn worth of beakers.

- I have a Great Scientist (allowing to partially bulb Fission). Another one will be available in 2 turns. I also have 2 Great Merchants. I'm not sure if I really need trade mission gold. It doesn't look like that, however I'm in a Golden Age which might give a wrong picture about my wealth. Is it best from now to invest all Great Persons for light bulbing?

Here is a map screenshot and my tech tree:

 

[Seraiel]

You can research Electricity, that's the tech I usually research after Physics / Communism. Helps a lot, especially when you have converted most of your empire to WMs.

It's best to use all GP on Golden Ages in a late Space Race. You should try to generate a GA + something for a GA during the time in which you build the Spaceship, and all other GPs ofc. can be used for bulbing.

 

[Todelotti]

You can research Electricity...

Hi Seraiel, ehm, Electricity was already some turns ago. See tech tree above, it's green...

 

[ChaosSlayer]

So how does this story ends?

Also - why is your map so cramped up? I mean this is suppose to be Standard size but it looks like you playing on Small or even smaller...

 

[Todelotti]

So how does this story ends?

Also - why is your map so cramped up? I mean this is suppose to be Standard size but it looks like you playing on Small or even smaller...

The story didn't end yet! I'm playing just slowly because I see that my supporters, especially Seraiel and Pangaea, are deeply involved in the HoF Gauntlet competition at the moment and probably just don't have enough time and patience to look at my game. Which is no problem at all because this game was never supposed to be a fast game. But I hope they don't forget me completely!

The map is really a standard size Pangaea map. However, the screenshot doesn't show the whole continent, only the part of my empire. There is some more land in the east (occupied by Zara and Ramesses). I've attached a complete map now.


Anyway, to drive the rest of the game a bit forward, I've tried to get an overview myself what techs will come for the space race and how to navigate through the tech tree - which I find surprisingly difficult because, wow, that's still a lot with a lot of dependencies between each other! The following is based on my current tech status which is still the one shown in the tech tree screenshot 4 posts earlier.

Techs definitely not needed for space race:
- Military Tradition
- Military Science
- Democracy
- Fascism
- Mass Media
- Advanced Flight
- Stealth
- Future Tech

Techs definitely needed for space race:
- Constitution
- Corporation
- Assembly Line
- Railroad
- Combustion
- Medicine
- Industrialism (reveals Aluminium)
- Rocketry (Apollo Project, 1600 , double production with Aluminium)
- Fission
- Radio
- Satellites (SS Docking Bay, 2000 , 1 required, double production with Aluminium)
- Plastics
- Composites (SS Casing, 1200 , 1-5 required, double production with Aluminium)
- Ecology (SS Life Support, 1000 , 1 required, double production with Copper)
- Superconductors (Laboratories and SS Thrusters, 1200 , 1-5 required, double production with Aluminium)
- Fiber Optics (SS Cockpit, 1 required, 1000 , double production with Copper)
- Genetics (SS Stasis Chamber, 1 required, 1200 , production can't be doubled)
- Fusion (SS Engine, 1-2 required, 1600 , production can't be doubled)

Alternative techs for space race:
- To research Rocketry I need either Artillery or Flight. Artillery is the cheaper tech and needs less prerequisites. So, I'd say, I can skip Flight and research Artillery.

- Robotics (The Space Elevator): Not directly needed to build the Space Ship. However, the Space Elevator gives 50% bonus to space ship part production. On the other hand, it would require to research Computers, comes relatively late in the tech tree and looks very expensive to build (2000 hammers, double production with Alu). I've read several posts on the forum now that discourage to research Robotics and to build the Space Elevator as too expensive and too slow. So, I'd say, I will skip this tech.

- There are 2 needed techs that have alternative paths, namely Superconductors and Fiber Optics:

--- Either Refrigeration->Superconductors or Computers->Superconductors
--- Either Laser->Fiber Optics or Computers->Fiber Optics

Refrigeration+Laser needs around 16500 beakers. Computers needs around 9700 beakers. So, beakerwise skipping Refrigeration and Laser and researching only Computers seems more reasonable. However, getting Superconductors very early looks tempting because it enables Laboratories with 25% research and 50% space ship production bonus. The path via Refrigeration is way shorter than via Computers. From my current research status the difference is:

--- Refrigeration->Superconductors (7 turns)
--- Constitution->Corporation->Assembly Line->Industrialism->Railroad->Combustion->Plastics->Radio->Computers->Superconductors (36 turns) (not necessarily in this order but those are the needed techs, and I will probably need even more turns because I'm in a Golden Age right now that will end soon)

I can't figure out the whole remaining research path until the end now, but for the next steps the following looks reasonable to me:

High priority techs:

- Industrialism: Because I want to know if and where I have Aluminium in my territory and hook that up.
- Rocketry: Because the Apollo Project must be built before any space ship part can be built.
- Superconductors: Because I want to build Laboratories in my cities that are supposed to build space ship parts later (and also to accelerate the further research)

Rocketry should come after Industrialism because the Apollo Project is boosted by Aluminium.

That leaves me with 2 options from my current point if research:

a) Constitution->Corporation->Assembly Line->Industrialism (hook up Alu)->Artillery->Rocketry (start Apollo Project)
b) Refrigeration->Superconductors (start building Laboratories)

The question is if I go (a) first, then (b) or the other way around.

I'm inclined to start with (b) because having Labs early helps for researching all the following techs and because there is a slight hope that Mansa or Zara will trade Constitution and maybe Corporation during my research of Refrigeration->Superconductors.

After (a) and (b) are finished we must evaluate again how to continue.

What do you think?

EDIT:

I forgot that Assembly Line allows to build Factories and Coal Plants which will help to build the Laboratories later. So, maybe I should definitely start with:

- Constitution->Corporation->Assembly Line (start building Factories and Coal Plants)

And then decide between:

a) Industrialism (hook up Alu)->Artillery->Rocketry (start Apollo Project)
b) Refrigeration->Superconductors (start building Laboratories)

 

[Seraiel]

The story didn't end yet! I'm playing just slowly because I see that my supporters, especially Seraiel and Pangaea, are deeply involved in the HoF Gauntlet competition at the moment and probably just don't have enough time and patience to look at my game. Which is no problem at all because this game was never supposed to be a fast game. But I hope they don't forget me completely!

We haven't forgotten you. I'm atm. just not having the time I usually have, and the time that I have gets easily eaten by the current Gauntlet.

Regarding the rest of your post, what I somehow remember:

Researching Refrigeration isn't worth it, there was a thread specifically about that recently. The gain through Laboratories is basically too small to justify the extra tech.

Also, you shouldn't overestimate bonuses like "50% through the Space-Elevator" . At that time you have Forges (+25%) + Factories with PP (+75%) + Aluminium (+100%) + Laboratories (+50%) so the gain from the Space-Elevator is really only the gain from 250% to 300%. I still sometimes build it, because Robotics can be rushed with the GE from Fusion and when having another GE, rushing the Space Elevator can still be fast enough to make it shave of 1-2T.

What's really important for you, is, that you micro your cities so that all parts get finished simultaniously, most easily done by building Wealth / Research, because the AI likes to destroy SS-parts via Espionage.

What you should do next is try to get Factories as soon as possible and build those + Coal Plants in all of your cities, grow the cities to max size and speed up teching as much as possible by building Wealth / Research in the finished cities. If you're good, you can research 1 tech every turn or every two turns.
There are 2 different approaches, 1 is to Cottage everything and run Free Speech + Emancipation and the other one is to Workshop everything, run Caste and switch the AIs to Caste via Espionage, to not get the Emancipation . It's unclear 'til now which approach is better. With being FIN, the FS + Emancipation approach seems even more attractive. Maybe go FS + Emancipation but pre-build as many Workshops 'til 1T before finishing to transform cities in the end so they can build the SS-parts faster. The Spaceship only got like 3-4 big parts, so not all cities have to be transformed.

 

[Pangaea]

See you remembered it yourself in the end, because I was going to mention that you get factories + power with Assembly Line, and you absolutely have to have those. +100% is a huge deal when the cities are big and working many workshops. You need that for building spaceship parts. Don't forget Levees with Steam Power either. Those can add many hammers too.

I have written down a sequence of late techs as a general guide. I believe it was taken from WastinTime's 700AD Space game. Check it out at least, and see if you want to use it yourself, or with small variations.

Physics
Electricity
Radio
Combustion
Industrialism
Plastics
Computers
Superconductors
Rifling
Artillery
Rocketry
Satellites
Composites
Fission
Fiber Optics
Fusion
Genetics
Ecology

Edit:
'ed

 

[Todelotti]

There are 2 different approaches, 1 is to Cottage everything and run Free Speech + Emancipation and the other one is to Workshop everything, run Caste and switch the AIs to Caste via Espionage, to not get the Emancipation . It's unclear 'til now which approach is better. With being FIN, the FS + Emancipation approach seems even more attractive. Maybe go FS + Emancipation but pre-build as many Workshops 'til 1T before finishing to transform cities in the end so they can build the SS-parts faster. The Spaceship only got like 3-4 big parts, so not all cities have to be transformed.

Does it make sense to start with cottaging NOW after I've already built workshops on most available grasslands? Below is my Improvements statistics. (A good part hasn't been built by me but by the conquered AIs.) I could maybe cottage a lot of the farms or even destroy the workshops again that I've built but doesn't it take too much time to grow them to villages/towns (even including the bonus from Emancipation)? And the farms are actually there to run Caste and specialists. I've basically prepared the economy to stay in State Property, Caste, Pacifism with buiding workshops to produce wealth/research and I'm still bulldozing cottages and hamlets that the AI apparently rarely worked. Going Cottages, Free Speech, Emancipation now seems like turning around 180 degrees after half of the road to me.

Of course, I didn't think about the Emancipation anger from other civs which might become a problem soon if I stay in Caste. I don't know if I can switch the AIs to Caste with spies because all my spy points went into Mansa. For example: Zara (who is the only one in Emancipation atm) has 0 spy points invested. Just 7 of my cities have courthouses and could run spy specialists. If I do that I need around 25 turns to collect enough spy points to "influence civics". Is it worth it?

Pangaea mentioned somewhere to run the culture slider a little bit to fight against the emancipation unhappiness. It's probably kind of a last resort because I would lose some beakers, but what else can I do if I can't accumulate enough spy points and don't want to leave Caste System? Producing happiness buildings (market, colosseum, ...)? Collecting as many happiness resources as possible (which I probably have already)?

 

[Todelotti]

I have written down a sequence of late techs as a general guide. I believe it was taken from WastinTime's 700AD Space game. Check it out at least, and see if you want to use it yourself, or with small variations.

Physics
Electricity
Radio
Combustion
Industrialism
Plastics
Computers
Superconductors
Rifling
Artillery
Rocketry
Satellites
Composites
Fission
Fiber Optics
Fusion
Genetics
Ecology

Most interesting for me is that Rocketry (that means: The Apollo Project) comes so late in this list. I had thought this is earlier needed. And the other thing is the early research of Radio, but I guess, WastinTime wanted to build Christo Redentor (which he did indeed according to the player log). I had Radio certainly scheduled later, at least after Industrialism and Rocketry. Will try to work roughly along this list (and perhaps try to even understand why this is a good research order ).

 

[Pangaea]

Cristo Redentor is actually a good wonder for space games, as I learnt in my last game, so probably not a bad idea to go for relatively early Radio. It's needed for later anyway. You don't really need to start on the Apollo all that quickly, and you in any case need to get up factories plus power before, because all those hammers are needed. Then you can build Apollo relatively quickly in the Ironworks city once you have located and hooked up Aluminum.

I've heard some say it's good to get Genetics earlier, though, for extra health (you get lots of in the late game) and to start on the Stasis chamber. Not sure if there really is an ideal path, but think I wrote this down from the 700AD game, so it can't be bad

I've usually taken Combustion and Plastics later, but I guess it's this early due to Three Gorges Dam. I've not built that because I already have coal plants, and didn't think it mattered then. But apparently it still reduces , so then it's a good idea I suppose.