Improving vs Harvesting Bonus Resources

[Natex]

I nearly always improve tiles with bonus resources (wheat, rice, copper, stone, etc.) rather than harvesting them for the immediate boost. This was based on some sketchy heuristic math I did a while ago, but since I've heard several opinions that harvesting is often better.

Has anyone done the real math on this? When is it better to harvest versus improve?

 

[fortydayweekend]

Take a simple one - chopping forest - and massively oversimplify it.

From the formula thread, the yield goes from 25 to 250, adding another 3 or 4 with each tech discovered. (Or 4-5 per civic, whichever is higher).

Subtract from that the cost of a builder charge.

The opportunity cost is (in the simplest case) losing 1 cog/turn for the rest of the game on a worked forest tile.

Then you just have to decide which is better - the cogs now or cogs every turn for the rest of the game.

Some simple cases - as you get closer to the end, it makes sense to chop - as the value of the tile yield drops to zero with the number of turns left in the game. Especially e.g. for a SV it makes sense to chop forest to finish spaceship projects.

What about the first chop? With a couple of techs you might get 35-odd cogs for it, less 17 for a builder charge, leaving 18 profit. If you're going to work that tile then you'd need an ROI of 6% to be ahead - which you could easily get from military conquest and settlers and builders in the early game. But probably not from say a granary.

Mid-game? Say you get 120 less say 25 for a 5-charge builder charge - 95 profit. If you're giving up 1 cog/turn for that, that's a good deal for things like CD, traders, market, workshops, and for victory condition buildings. But probably not from a third shipyard or an aqueduct in every city.

Gold resources are similar - yield is twice as much for both harvest and working the tile.

I think that chopping is usually worth it - IF what you're building is important.

In terms of when to chop - earlier is usually better. I don't think the yield increases enough to justify waiting unless you're waiting to tech a more important build like factories or spaceship parts.

As for food chops... that's much more complicated! I just chop everything as early as possible and hope that's the right strategy.

Edit: I haven't really thought about lumber mills in this - riverside ones I think obviously tip into keeping (if worked) but non-river ones are still better being turned into CDs and traders and builder charges

 

[Victoria]

Its a complicated business because its not just about maths but about necessity, timing and type.
You can over chop, chop too early and hesitate too long. Just how much do you need that and by when.
I tend to lockdown/rush to feudalism, and then quickly get a load of low hanging techs and civics before the chop fest really begins. I see no reason to delay some for later unless I have nothing important to build... and that's the question. Considering the overbearing cost of wonders we are loathe to build them but chopping them in seems more OK.
I will gladly chop marsh (unless Its in a good position to be used as a defense) but am loathe to go anywhere near a wheat farm with a stray match.

 

[diamond geezer]

Having taken over piles of AI cities, which have very little going for them in the surrounding tiles (I don't know if it's chopping or simply settling in bad spots) I don't fancy deliberately ending up with such places. I usually chop rainforests if they don't have a luxury and marsh without rice and wood sometimes (not next to a river). not keen on chopping much else, but I can see it could work if you're trying for a fast win.

 

[gimper42]

With the way that production overflow works in the current state of the game, chopping can be a massive boost. If you chop a +production resource with (ideally) just one turn remaining on the current build AND you have production boosting government cards in play, your excess cogs from chopping will get all available boosts from said cards. It doesn't matter what you choose to build next. The cogs will get all available boosts. Try this with +50% to settlers, +50% to land military and +100% to naval military cards in play. This can get expensive items, like a CD, built in a single turn under the correct conditions.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

It depends on the rest of the land, your population and how much growth do you expect for that city. As an example, say you have a 5 pop city, with 2 plains hills, 1 grassland hills, 2 forested grassland hills (not along a river), 2 flat plains woods along rivers, Horses on flat Grassland, Coffee on flat rainforest, and Stone on flat grassland.

Probably you'll improve the Horses and Coffee (if anything, because you can't remove them and you might trade them). The Horses are probably worth working, the Coffee so-so. The hills, obviously, will be mined because they give 1+ production (+2 after Apprenticeship and +3 production after Industrialization, and that's pretty solid IMO). That leaves currently 1 worker. Do you chop the woods? Do you harvest the stone?

In that case, the woods on the hills might be better gone, because by the time you get lumber mills, mines will already give +2 production. The woods + lumber mill also give +2 production, so chopping it will give the same bonus and the chop. If your city is going to grow relatively fast, to around 7-8 pop, you might want to keep the woods along the rivers, because lumber mills on those give +2 production each, instead of +1. You might want to harvest the Stone, because it's not likely your city will grow fast enough to benefit from it for a long time, and it'll probably expand borders to more useful tiles around.

Remember also that discovery of new Strategic Resources might change the picture altogether.

 

[chazzycat]

With the way that production overflow works in the current state of the game, chopping can be a massive boost.
...
It doesn't matter what you choose to build next. The cogs will get all available boosts.

Does it matter what your original build was? Or does ALL overflow get multiplied by ALL cards regardless of BOTH items?

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Does it matter what your original build was? Or does ALL overflow get multiplied by ALL cards regardless of BOTH items?

If I recall correctly, every production from the previous build overflows, multiplied or not. For example, if you use Sagan with Kwolek's effect to build a Mars Colony part, you'll have 4200 production overflowing for whatever you need.

 

[joncnunn]

On Food chops:
That is often Marsh -> clear marsh -> Farm (unless you need the tile for a district sooner) ; in this case Marsh provides 3 food as is and in early game clearing + farming tends to reduce this to 2 food and so in early game, it's probably not worth clearing unless you really need an additional person right then (both raw food produced for clearing increases and the size of the food bucket as the population grows). But once you have the civic that allows a farm next to two other farms to get an extra food, that marsh should be immediately cleared and farmed as there's no longer any going forward downside.
There are cases though in which you might need the tile for a district; in which case clear it early before the district price increases.

 

[gimper42]

Does it matter what your original build was? Or does ALL overflow get multiplied by ALL cards regardless of BOTH items?

I have had a limited amount of time to test this out. It does not seem to matter what is being built when the chop occurs, all of the overflow cogs get all available boosts. I think the last time I did this I had a water mill cooking with 1 turn remaining and had a builder chop a woods feature. The city was producing around 17 cogs per turn on its own. I had the three +% cards mentioned previously in play. The resulting overflow would have allowed me to build almost anything available to that city in 1 turn. The few items that would have taken 2 turns were the most expensive military units. I chose to build a commerce hub in 1 turn.

 

[fortydayweekend]

On Food chops:
That is often Marsh -> clear marsh -> Farm (unless you need the tile for a district sooner) ; in this case Marsh provides 3 food as is and in early game clearing + farming tends to reduce this to 2 food and so in early game, it's probably not worth clearing unless you really need an additional person right then (both raw food produced for clearing increases and the size of the food bucket as the population grows). But once you have the civic that allows a farm next to two other farms to get an extra food, that marsh should be immediately cleared and farmed as there's no longer any going forward downside.
There are cases though in which you might need the tile for a district; in which case clear it early before the district price increases.

Also I think if you don't plan to work the tile for 3f before Feudalism / better farms, may as well clear it and turn it into an extra worked tile ASAP.

Especially in cities that will be limited by housing - there's often no point in working a straight 3f tile if there are enough 2f +p grassland mines/stone/horses (or 3f +something else resource tiles) to get up to a realistic mid-game size.

Edit: oh and also to get a city up to 4 or 7 pop quicker for cheaper districts - maybe the optimal play there would be to wait until it's just enough to get over the line.

 

[Bro]

I usually harvest rocks for wonders and districts. Every single one of them. A quarry is much worse on a hill than a mine and a bit worse than a farm on non-hill. Forests I chop if they are not on hill near river and rice/wheat I harvest if they are outside of my "farm triangle". Basically I try to plan my cities district, wonder and farm planning when I settle or conquer them and harvest everything that does not fit to the planning. Also, harvest sooner than later IMO.

 

[Herod]

Usually I don't chop unless I'm close to a SV, but now that you get nothing for losing a wonder I've started chopping wonders as an insurance policy.

 

[gimper42]

A quarry is much worse on a hill than a mine and a bit worse than a farm on non-hill.

I had not realized this. In my most recent game I have harvested several stone tiles to great effect and the resulting empty grassland hills do indeed make much better mines. It seems like the only reasons to make a quarry would be for the early masonry boost , industrial zone adjacency and/or if your city is otherwise going to be light on cogs. Clearing a piece of stone to make way for a farm that can complete a triangle seems optimal if possible.

 

[Bro]

I had not realized this. In my most recent game I have harvested several stone tiles to great effect and the resulting empty grassland hills do indeed make much better mines. It seems like the only reasons to make a quarry would be for the early masonry boost , industrial zone adjacency and/or if your city is otherwise going to be light on cogs. Clearing a piece of stone to make way for a farm that can complete a triangle seems optimal if possible.

Excactly. Another one I'm still testing is harvesting cattle. It only gives you +1 food on default and +1 cog when pastured. Pasture does get another +1 cog and food later on but if the cattle is on your farm triangle it is more benefical foodwise to harvest it and farm the tile. I think cattle and stone are underpowered and should be boosted.

Of course if you go for the God of the Open Sky Pantheon then it is another deal.

 

[Jarms48]

I usually harvest rocks for wonders and districts. Every single one of them. A quarry is much worse on a hill than a mine and a bit worse than a farm on non-hill. Forests I chop if they are not on hill near river and rice/wheat I harvest if they are outside of my "farm triangle". Basically I try to plan my cities district, wonder and farm planning when I settle or conquer them and harvest everything that does not fit to the planning. Also, harvest sooner than later IMO.

Wait, wouldn't a quarry on a hill end up better than a mine? For example:
- grassland hill + mine: 2 food, 4 production
- grassland hill + stone + quarry: 2 food, 4 production, 1 gold

Though I suppose mines get that extra production a lot sooner (earlier techs), and those quarries can disrupt farm triangles.

 

[whacker]

Wait, wouldn't a quarry on a hill end up better than a mine? For example:
- grassland hill + mine: 2 food, 4 production
- grassland hill + stone + quarry: 2 food, 4 production, 1 gold

True, but as you said the +1 for quarries comes pretty late (rocketry). You also lose the production from chopping the stone, which should be around 150 when rocketry kicks in. Most games won`t last 150+ additional turns after rocketry tech and the +1 gold is neglectable at that point anyway.

 

[Bro]

True, but as you said the +1 for quarries comes pretty late (rocketry). You also lose the production from chopping the stone, which should be around 150 when rocketry kicks in. Most games won`t last 150+ additional turns after rocketry tech and the +1 gold is neglectable at that point anyway.

Indeed. When you harvest the stone and mine the tile you will get the extra cogs from the harvest and the fact that Industrialization comes way before Rocketry so you will benefit cogs from that also. The +1 gold is too little to make a difference. However, if you have plenty of quarries and you're playing for religious victory you could choose the pantheon which gives +1 faith from quarries.

 

[ShinigamiKenji]

Of course if you go for the God of the Open Sky Pantheon then it is another deal.

Same can be said about quarries when using Stone Circles Even though it's more situational, it's a powerful faith-giving pantheon, given the abundance of stone.

 

[gimper42]

With the abundance of ways to create faith, and the ability to double most of those with policy cards, Stone Circles drops way off on my priority list for pantheons. TBH, the one I use the most is the +1 cog to swamp, oasis and floodplain tiles. That one can help get early cogs in your new cities which is the #1 priority for any new city. Granted I have not attempted a religious victory yet. However, I have, with very little effort, been able to generate several hundred faith per turn by the end of most of my domination games.