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In BTS AI got greatly increased production bonuses.

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Mutineer, Jul 23, 2007.

  1. Mutineer

    Mutineer Deity

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    It seems Blake AI become even more remote from human player then befor.
    Main reason is him ignoring AI's grow city bonuses.
    It first become noticeable in Warlords, when AI start to build cottages everywhere, but still grow it’s cities to size human player can not hope to achieve to the end of the game on max grow. So, when one’s cities are still size 2, AI suddenly has size 7 cities. That made military strategy extremely effective, as of result of conquest human player got cities he can not in principle build himself. AI does not need farms, as it can grow with out them. So, AI does cottage everything. Human player take this cities with already big size and developed cottages.
    Simple, AI got a huge grow bonuses. But in Vanilla they just compensated bad workers and city government AI. In Warlords workers and government AI were improved, but grow bonuses left untouched, creating this situation.

    Now in BTW situation become mach worse, as grow bonuses now apply to production.
    IN Vanilla/Warlords AI did not used Whipping/drafting. In BTS it does.
    AS result instead of Vanilla/Warlords AI’s 0-30% production bonuses, in BTS AI effectively have 100-200% production bonuses, making it impossible for player to compete with AI in area of production in principle. The only thin that limit BTS AI unit production is upkeep. But still, because of grow bonuses AI can afford to put mach more land to cottages, instead of farms. So, AI simply has more commerce to use.

    Bottom line, AI abilities now made it mach less compatible with human player then befor. That making AI when different (which is good, so not to keep game stale), but actually worse, in comparing with human player.
     
  2. Zoolooman

    Zoolooman Space, Time, Travel

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    My Steam copy of BTS won't unlock until tomorrow, so I can't check the numbers. What is the current growth bonus in the .xml file for BTS? And how does it compare to the Warlords/Vanilla growth bonuses?

    I'll be very disappointed if this particular AI bonus wasn't rebalanced to match the AI's improved city building and production.
     
  3. EEE_BOY

    EEE_BOY Deity

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    I think the bonus in BTS is less than in Warlord 2.08 accroding to my feeling after some play. AI don't upgrade all their obsolete units because they may be short of money. barbarian is not very annoying even in Emperor. and I haven't seen any navy activity yet.
     
  4. sunrise089

    sunrise089 Not that good

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    I'm interested in seeing how this develops. I know Blake has commented on toning down AI bonuses to keep difficulty levels fairly intact while raising the AI skill levels, but could this have somehow got overlooked?
     
  5. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    Impossible to compete with the AI in terms of production???

    We must be playing a different game Mutineer!! :D
     
  6. klokwerk

    klokwerk Prince

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    Mutineer, Blake explained in another thread that most AI bonuses had been greatly DECREASED, you just have to play BtS 5 minutes to see how much improved the AI is, which everybody agrees about, but you still come claiming the earth is flat, making a fool of yourself. The AI has never felt as human as now... AIs attack more (especially on agg AI), they can attack from sea, they don't collapse in industrial era like before, and it makes the game much funnier from the beginning to the end. It feels much more human to me, especially since it betrails you more and looks a bit less to the 'personality profile'. I never enjoyed as much as now. In short, Blake made an awesome work.

    You criticized Blake even before actually seeing his work on BtS and now that everybody can see it's better than any civ AI made before (see the other threads), you come back and find this stupid story about a production bonus... :rolleyes:

    Just play BtS again and if you still think it's crappy, well... use Civ 1.00 instead.

    (Better still, show us what a better AI is, make one !)
     
  7. klokwerk

    klokwerk Prince

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    Obviously he's drunk, the AI never felt as human as in BtS, and at least on monarch, the bonus seem just much more 'right' than before... I'm on par with the others on production and money... Remember he was the guy who made similar comments BEFORE Blake released anything.

    Come on, man, yesterday, I was sneak invaded from multiple parts of the world simultaneously on different cities of mine, by about 20 or 30 boats, that was so great, I never saw any AI manage to do that... Feel free to do better, we can mod the game.

    Moderator Action: This post and the previous one - please discuss the issues raised, not attack the person raising them.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
     
  8. Zoolooman

    Zoolooman Space, Time, Travel

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    He's not complaining about the AI's improvement. He's saying that a particular bonus with far-reaching consequences was not changed--even though the AI will now utilize its advantages to a much higher level.

    I'll gladly correct him when I have my hands on my own copy and can falsify his claim. Otherwise, I'll at least give him his due. Now, if you have a copy and can do the work, maybe you can disprove him. Otherwise, I'd suggest chilling out and arguing the point, not the man.
     
  9. Jorunkun

    Jorunkun Back with a vengeance

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    Gents, please be easy on Mutineer, who was just arguing a reasonable concern. No need to be insulting, is there?
     
  10. klokwerk

    klokwerk Prince

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    Well, I just argued the point if you read my post :

    - the game feels much more human now, since you don't cruise to victory from the industrial era like before, which is exactly what you want since it gives a challenging AI from the beginning to the end. I mean you see less difference in score between the civs than before. I just played monarch, but it's probably true on emperor and above too.

    - I was on par with the AIs all game long in production and GDP, so no problem here at all either.

    I talked about mutineer's prerelease thread to show that he was criticizing the AI BEFORE it was released, which seems a bit pointless to me, maybe we can agree on that :lol:
     
  11. QwertyKey

    QwertyKey Warlord

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    He didn't nessissarially talk about it before he had a copy. I've had a copy since last Wednesday personally. Nothing to say that he didn't also.
     
  12. sunrise089

    sunrise089 Not that good

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    Muti does NOT have a copy - but he doesn't need one for this thread. He isn't saying the AI is good or bad (well, at least that isn't the point) - he's saying there is more or less what amounts to a bug - that one certain AI bonus did NOT go away, and is getting massive synergy from AI whip/drafting (maybe which Blake only set to happen on higher levels???).

    Now, as I said before, I suspect this is a mistaken impression, since I doubt Blake would have been this careless. That said, knee-jerk reactions in defense of the expansion aren't needed here - I recall plenty of discussion in rabid favor of the Vanilla game we all see problems in now, so let's allow the question to be asked.
     
  13. Swiss Pauli

    Swiss Pauli Emperor

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    I think 'in principle' is the key here. Whilst the AI could abuse the whip, will its personality let it run slavery to the same extent as a human? Will its somewhat random build choices be consistently good? The removal of free workers means that the human is in less of a hole in the early game on higher levels, so I'm adopting an open mind on this topic until there's more evidence to show whether the theoretical advantages translate into practice.
     
  14. scooter

    scooter Prince

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    Mutineer, have you even played the game yet? Blake specifically said the AI's bonuses were dropped, and if you looked at the list it was quite a bit...
     
  15. Soneji

    Soneji Prince and Great Steward

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    The AI is much better, especially at wearing down you SoD.

    They use naval units better, and I wish the great wall would extend out to my waters too, as the barb ships are getting annoying!

    Erm.. I don't find it that much more dificult, it feels like I am playing against something with a lot of sense behind it. Also, as regards to this 'I welcome our Dutch overlords' pathetic childish nonesense, everytime I have encountered them they have been military wise, pathetic and a walk over.

    The only thing is preparing for war takes longer, with enemy cav / mounted units being able to flank into my stack(s).

    I'm much happier, the game has much less of a linear feel to it. The AI actually has tried some funky first strike attacks... I'm really enjoying it.

    (Playing on Prince btw, had to drop down to Warlord for a couple of games to get used to the changes!)
     
  16. Todd Hawks

    Todd Hawks Warlord

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    Alright, basically the only thing Mutineer said was that the AI gets a growth bonus. More precisely the growth bonus has been increased in his opinion.

    Looking at the files, I see no difference between Warlords and BtS of the iAIGrowthPercent modifier.
    Actually, just to make sure, I also looked at the vanilla file (after the latest patch, but still...) and I don't see any change there either. Doesn't look like it ever has changed.

    So either I'm looking at the wrong value or Mutineer simply is wrong.
     
  17. Spearthrower

    Spearthrower Thrower of spears

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    How about empirical observations over hypothetical assumptions? ;)
     
  18. Zoolooman

    Zoolooman Space, Time, Travel

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    I think you're looking at the right value but misinterpreting Mutineer.

    The AI growth modifier can become an extreme production and commerce bonus--if the AI uses it to its advantage.

    For production, the AI simply needs to use slavery. That growth bonus will become a vast heaping production bonus, because the AI will always have new population points to spend. In an early version of Better AI, this was a common problem. The AI would outproduce the human by about 200% because it could whip its cheaply grown population.

    For commerce, the AI simply needs to spam cottages. The growth bonus will allow it to work more cottage tiles than a human ever could. You see, the human has to waste tiles building farms to make the extra food for his citizens, but the AI can use its growth bonus to grow extra citizens with the food from its cottaged grasslands.

    In both cases, the AI derives an unbeatable advantage--if it knows how to use it. In the case of Better AI, the AI did. Mutineer suspects that the same problem will occur here. I honestly don't know yet, but I haven't tested the game.
     
  19. colony

    colony Slow Typer

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    The values of the AIGrowthPercent are in the table, they're similar, but their advantage is a bit smaller than in Warlords, and much smaller at Deity. It does seem that letting the AI whip and chop makes these bonuses seem bigger than they look, but I haven't played enough games yet to be able to tell if the difficulty levels are still comparable.

    Code:
    Difficulty	WL value	BTS value
    
    Settler		160		160
    Chieftain	130		130
    Warlord		110		110
    Noble		100		100
    Prince		95		100
    Monarch		90		95
    Emperor		85		90
    Immortal	80		85
    Deity		60		80
    
     
  20. darrelljs

    darrelljs Immortal

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    I would say he does need a copy for this thread...the title is "in BTS AI got greatly increased production bonuses" (sic). That implies to me he has the game and after some careful investigation has drawn this conclusion. From the table posted by colony, it is clear that his facts are wrong and he either doesn't have a copy or he didn't bother to check. It appears to me from this and other posts he's pursuing some kind of bizarre crusade against Blake. I'm not sure why, I don't really care, but I do find it vaguely entertaining :mischief:.

    Darrell
     

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