In-Depth Guide: Mayan/Arabian ICS strategy.

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Tich, Aug 20, 2012.

  1. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    subbed. its been an excellent read and i like these kinds of threads.
     
  2. Avatan

    Avatan Warlord

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    Great read!

    ICSing have always intrigued me but few things I still can't understand:
    - do you just put cities everywhere, regardless of terrain? on standard size I consider myself lucky if I can plant 4 semi-decent cities.
    - how do you survive the turn 50 rush in case of mass Dow? A few archers might do the trick ok, but then you are not building settlers or shrines. And size 3 cities are going to fall in 2 turns top, which hardly give you enough time to use archers or bring reinforcement?
    - more profoundly, what is ICS good for? What are the advantages? You stated that it makes science/SP/gold generation hard but conquest easy. How's so? With such small cities it is gonna take ages to build even a crossbow man, and your troops are going to face technologically superiors enemies.

    Thanks, I really want to try this but I feel like I need to see the angle before I start!
     
  3. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Tich can better reply on all of your questions (I think ICS is just fun as a change of pace, as I usually bias towards "tall" strategies), but for an ICS strategy you have to rethink what amounts to a semi-decent city location. If the goal is roughly 5 pop, with two working uni slots, all you need is a decent food tile or two, a hill (besides the hill you settled on, if possible) or forest to work, and preferably a strategic resource and/or luxury tile (unique lux is nice, but not absolutely necessary--it can make the city more or less happiness-neutral initialy, but over time you're not relying on uniques to fuel your city spam and duplicates can be sold or traded lux-for-lux).
     
  4. Karpyan

    Karpyan Chieftain

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    Worked like a dream for me - Emperor win on T265 with Mayans. Thanks for the guide - the religion is an amazing happiness developer. I got lucky with two faith ruins though, which made my religion come out first and spread like wildfire.
     
  5. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    Must disagree in the strongest possible terms with pagodas. As I suspected, and recently confirmed with forum sage, puppets cannot buy pagodas. So if you want to ICS and conquer, take religious centers.
     
  6. RStark

    RStark Prince

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    I have been playing as Arabia in MP hotseat game.
    The game settings are: huge map, 12 human players, continents, raging barbs, no ruins, the king difficulty level.
    I am going tu use described ICS strategy.
    However, I would like to try out somewhat modified strategy:
    1) social policies: honour opener => liberty tree => rationalism tree
    2) in my new cities to be constructed in the following order: chariot archer (archer or other military unit) => shrine

    My empire will generate less faith every turn, but it will have more troops from the beginning of the game which will be used for barb hunting, CS bullying, attacking and defending from other civs.

    Has anyone tried to play out that kind of game with Arabia? Do you think it is viable strategy for MP?
     
  7. Schalke 04

    Schalke 04 Knappe

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    "in the strongest possible terms"? I find that a little exaggerated. Besides, Tich never stated that puppets can purchase Pagodas. With full ICS you have 10-15 cities that can purchase Pagodas, so you got enough possibilities to do it there. For religious centers you need to build temples in all of your cities. They cost maintenance and don't give you culture. So that's a clear win for Pagodas here.
     
  8. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    Except that one does not simply build a pogada into Mordor. You need to accumulate faith, the cost increases a huge amount in the midgame, and puppets can't make use of the happiness. Plus, ICS is not a culture heavy strategy anyway.

    You can't always get desert folklore or a map that lends itself to using it. If you have a map with lots of floodplains and get desert folklore, by all means take the pagodas, but most of the time you don't get bat**** insane faith/turn.
     
  9. dasnowflake

    dasnowflake Chieftain

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    is the "+1 culture from shines" pantheon op with mayans? i always build pyramids ASAP
     
  10. Bobafett0610

    Bobafett0610 Warlord

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    Here's my ICS game as the Huns, one turn before I won spaceship victory. I didn't follow this pattern to the letter, for instance, limiting pop in cities. I did follow the build order for the capital for the most part (built horse archers instead of archers), and I followed the building a city every 10 turns bit as well. I stopped building once I had conquored Byzantime and Asaka. Rome started going ICS crazy as well early on, luckly I focused on building a total of 4 horse archers and three battering rams while continuing to ICS and declared war around turn 50 or 47 I think. Allying with Tyre for the two lux happyness bonus was key while conquoring Rome, if not, I would of had to stop and leave him with half his cities. It's not the best ICS, but I hate micromanaging. Hopefully it helps as a general guide for those who want to mess around looking at a save game. Eventually happyness was not an issue, especially once the ceremonial burial trait kicked in, the plus one happyness from shrines, and the pagodas. I set it at random civ, so there are much better options for ICS then the huns ofcourse. Even on a side note, even if one doesn't build or use the two hun unique units, the +1 production from pastures helps bigtime, especially when combined with stables, even more so if one wants to stop growth and keep their ics cities at a few pop each.
     
  11. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

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    Why do you stagnate your cities to 3? Wouldnt it be better to stagnate half cities to 2 and half to 4?

    I ask this is because library gives +1 science for every 2 citizen. So library in size one city gives zero research. Size 2 and 3 it gives +1 and size 4 and 5 it gives +2

    So if you have 10 size 3 cities you get +10 science from libraries
    If you have 5 size 4 and 5 size 2 you get +15 science from libraries.
     
  12. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    dont like this guide at all.
    the BO is just bad!

    I mean clueless people might "learn" something out of it - but when calling something a guide it should but at least subperfect.
    A ICS without Pyras is no real good ICS
    Also
    is just the wrong way to do

    All cities apart cap want build 3 things: Monument, shrine (esp as maya) archer/warrior.
    You want do 2 things: aly CS to get their lux and benefit
    kill 1 neighbour early on (depending on difficutly but usually with composite bow) for both u need units and both is more important as all other

    also u dont want start building settler before you reach Collective rule - better grow cap before that to have more tiles to work production once u got - once u got SPAM!

    best BO is imo:
    Monument
    scout
    worker
    pyras
    settler 4x
    (now u usually ll have your 4th sp pick piety opener and build shrines everywhere)
    Granny
    Grow Cap to maximise gold from Trade routes

    other cities
    Monument
    (shrins as as sp for them)
    units untill "enough"
    maybe worker
    Libraries, temples, market

    Also i d never avoid theology with maya - just get it at some point u ll have anyway and there is no way to massspam scientists.
    The earlier u get theo the more early u get the good effect from the gp and the best u counter the long run negative effect.
    In fact all guys are useful ..

    Ok when thinking about it basiclly all adice in guide is bad advice ..

    Doesnt say u cant win games with following it ..
     
  13. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    religion beliefs require 'X' (3, 5, 6, etc) followers to get some of the bonuses. I see what you are saying about 2 or 4, though. It's also tough to get 10 cities with libraries and have that extra 5bpt really make a difference. by then you are usually in t150 or later and at about 110+bpt. so 110 or 115 isnt that big of a difference. I usually like lesser cities to be at 4 or 5 because 3 of the 4 citizens are following for the bonus but not all 4. plus you can load a few specialist in 5 pop cities and keep them stagnant. It does mean extra unhappiness but if you chose beliefs or buildings that help with that it can help quite a bit.
     
  14. neilkaz

    neilkaz King

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    @ tommynt...a few questions if you don't mind. All this is SP related.

    1) Monument before scout? I presume that you've found that the loss from missing a ruin or two due to the later scout and also maybe 15 or 30 lost gold as you are first to meet a couple CS is less important than getting Liberty and then other SP's open ASAP?

    2) When killing one neighbor early, do you leave them with a crappy city to avoid war monger hatred or do you just finish them off completely? Do you puppet their non-capitol cities or raze and rebuild into your ICS? Obviously killing a neighbor both eliminates a threat and gives you more room for ideal cities for your ICS.

    3) Pyramids? Can you reliably get them following this BO playing Immortal or worse yet, Deity? I presume on Emperor you'd be able to build that wonder.

    4) Piety Opener? I have to admit that this one is a shocker to me since shrines are quick to build. Do you still keep Piety open to build temples also? How costly is the turn of anarchy when you switch your now considerable empire to Rationalism?

    5) Your waiting for Piety to build the shrine in the cap? Doesn't this mean that you're late getting a pantheon? Couldn't it even mean missing a Religion on Deity. However, once 5 shrines are quickly built, your faith is impressive.

    .. thx .. neilkaz ,,
     
  15. Hammer Rabbi

    Hammer Rabbi Deity GOTM Staff

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    While I am not tommynt, I'm guessing he means the Mayan UB Pyramids, not the wonder. It replaces shrines and provides +2beakers/+2faith. Probably why Piety opener is worth it. It works for puppets to build them faster too, i think.
     
  16. tommynt

    tommynt Emperor

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    well, that really depends on map type and difficulty, on some low difficulties (up to king) ai wont really scout early anyway so u d still get ruins.
    But on a pangea emperor map it might be better to start with a scout.

    thats totaly depends on the winnign type and style u want to play - I m no big fan of RAs - I rather max own science and with a wide empire other civs wont like u anyway - so it will just not matter to much ...

    Pyras are the most easy to get wonder, even on deity it ll be easy with teching to them straight
    The only Problem with ICS on deity is that u ll want a religion and this will be hard on deity.
    I m not really sure if there is a save way to get a religion on deity but if u know any go for it - in fact all u need is a belief which gets u faith (like faith for stone or for desert ot for nw if u r lucky to have one close ...) and then things start rolling ....

    4) Piety Opener? I have to admit that this one is a shocker to me since shrines are quick to build. Do you still keep Piety open to build temples also? How costly is the turn of anarchy when you switch your now considerable empire to Rationalism?

    As said if u really want go for a science win u might have to adjust playstyle - I personly like the 1. 3 sp in peity a lot but I agree that for a science win they r kinda lost as Rati is so op.
    Some people say - just switch and take the anarchy - dont like that too much either ...
    But then I do that in mp sometimes - a strong religion is so powerful ... and once u got pagodas shrines and temples up in like 8+ cities u dont need the boni from peity anymore anyway - 150-200 faith will run in every turn and grant loads and loads of great people


    as said depending on map and land and difficulty u might have to start with
    scout
    monument
    shrine
    and then go for pyras - even then getting them should not be a problem

    I just wanted point out what an bad idea it is to start with settlers before collective rule - way better to grow to 4 or 5 and build some mines in that time to have 4-5 turn settler then as have a bad cap for ages and build settlers for same ages.

    Also dont forget u can get loans from ai .....
     
  17. Tabarnak

    Tabarnak Cut your lousy hairs!

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    Since wonder preferences will be changed for next patch it will be interesting if the Pyramids wonder will stay viable up to deity. Devs might include a form of RNG.

    Build order may vary from a difficulty to another but i have to agree with Tommy about Pyramids. This wonder rocks under ICS/large empires. This guide is also almost 2 months old...lot of specific decisions has been changed or discovered. Maybe Tich will modify some things but he doesn't seem to be around anymore.
     
  18. RedRover57

    RedRover57 Emperor

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    For a fun game try standard pangaea plus map (-1 AI civ) with low sea level. This gives you more room to breathe. I'm finding this strategy to be really refreshing compared with the usual (but predictable) 4-city Tradition start. In my current game with the Mayans I have 18 cities on t150 and cranking out a new one every couple of turns. The strategy I have used is slightly different than the OP:

    General build order in new cities = Pyramid, Monument, Market, Library (grow to 4 pop), University (grow to 5 pop). A few other buildings are situational, e.g., Circus, Stoneworks, Stables, Walls, etc. I found that the early Market helps a bit with upkeeping a larger military for defense (needed because of the large amount of territory to cover).

    Important Wonders: The Pyramids, Machu Picchu (rushed with GE from Liberty finisher), Forbidden Palace (rushed with GE from Mayan Calendar)

    SPs: Full Liberty (I actually went right side first and took Collective Rule last - not sure if this is the best idea, but seemed to work well), Commerce opener (only because I wasn't to Renaissance yet), Rationalism (ideally I would like 4 policies - left side through uni/tp boost and right side happiness from unis policy), Order opener.

    Religion: +2 science per trade route, +1 happy per converted city, +1 happy per shrine in cities with 3 converts, pagodas, religious texts - Maybe it would have been better to take +2 happy for temples in cities with 5 converts, but quite frankly I haven't built temples as they are costly and I haven't really had anything better to buy with faith than pagodas (missionaries are un-needed as I am applying extreme pressure and spread as it is - no other religion will be able to compete against mine). My faith/turn is a bit low, but still getting a pagoda every 10 turns or so at 300 each.

    In this game I started with a large amount of space to grow, so didn't need to conquer a neighbor early. Eventually I will run out of space though (after another 8-10 cities) and will need to consider a bit of warmongering.

    One question for the experts - How large do you grow your capital? I have kept mine at 6 pop as I have just been churning out settlers. I don't even have a uni in it yet. At some point I guess I will need to turn settler duty completely over to other cities and improve my capital a bit more.

    Edit: Oh, another thing to note in my game - so far I have only needed to build one coliseum (in my capital) and I am still running with excess happiness and plopping down a new city every few turns. So I'm not sure if I will ever need to build coliseums in my other cities.
     
  19. Browd

    Browd Dilettante Administrator

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    Re your points about not needing coliseums, instead of ceremonial burial, I would have taken church property (for the 2gpt/city, given the tiny pop cities, as opposed to tithe). With the extra gold you could buy things like a university in your capital as you let it grow (once you're done churning out settlers). Also, helps hedge against the risk you might not have gotten machu pichu, and you can always dump the extra the gold on merantile CSs to help manage happiness.

    EDIT: And I think you made the right choice on shrine happy vs. temple happy. Apart from the turns/hammers and maintenance cost of temples, the temple happy belief requires 5 followers in the city, and in a 5-pop city you might only have 3 or 4 followers for a long time, even with massive pressures from ICS.
     
  20. RedRover57

    RedRover57 Emperor

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    In my game I have no religious competition of any note near me so my citizens are converting almost immediately as soon as the cities grow. I'm now pushing 150 pressure on the periphery of my empire and 200+ in the center (with 20 cities now). But the real choice was not shrine belief vs. temple belief (shrine is a no-brainer here), it is temple belief vs. pagodas. But currently I'm happy with pagodas (pun intended).

    I can't wait to see what happens when all my universities come on line and the majority of my cities reach 5 pop within the next 10-20 turns. My next 2 policies will be down the Rationalism left side for a large increase in science (although I'm already tech leader anyway). I'm also crossing my fingers for a very late (t175ish) Oracle completion. And I agreed with Askia to war against my neighbor Alex in 10 turns as he placed a city that completely messes up my grid (burn baby burn!).
     

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