In the name of peace, love, and ... Socialism!?!?!?

[Grit]

My apologies if this title seems a little vulger or weird, but dos any one notice that the state porperty civic is over powered? I myself find that every time my government is run like so-
1. Representation
2. Freedom of Speech
3. State property
4. Freedom of speech
I'm basicly making oodls of money and running a welfare/socialist/communist state. I thought that state property was supposed to ruin an economy not help make it the most powerful thing on earth... next to my army of course
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Don't hate dictate

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Well, if you have a small empire, it doesn't work quite so well (less corruption). Try not invading anybody next game.

 

[Grit]

I'll try but its just so tempting all those resources and cities and stuff for the taking! Argh!

 

[Inqvisitor]

Communism has always been overpowered in the Civ series and the State Property civic is no different. It is sort of a shame considering how well balanced all the other civics are in comparison. There should be at least some sort of downside to it.

 

[SkippyT]

Well, it is overpowered, NO UPKEEP, NO MAINTENENCE COST FROM DISTANCE FROM PALACE, that's just crazy. But isn't that all right. Later on, you can't afford State property with Environmentalism, because of Global warming ..

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Yes, it is unbalanced
Vs. Free Market it is balanced on a Commerce level only IF the Free Market has Courthouses, Banks, and Forbidden Palaces (for a very large empire) so the Smaller and More developed your empire, the Better Free Market is (v. State Property)

(1 Domestic Trade Route for Large city in a Large empire=3 commerce=> Banks=>6 Gold
Distance Maintenance+Civic Maintenance=~4+~2=>Courthouse=>~2+~2=> 4 Gold (+~50% inflation=6 Gold)

This is only for your individual cities, the inner ones will experience a net commerce loss by taking State Property (so as long as your 'average city' is more than ~4 tiles away from one of the 'Palaces' on a NORMAL map OR you have some more Foreign Trade Routes available OR you have several Harbor Cities, which significantly increase that)


Ideally they would make Mercantilism 'No Maintenance' and State Property 'Medium' Maintenance making the Commerce more balanced towards Free Market (maybe beef up SP's prooduction bonus +1 Food AND Hammer? to compensate)


Unfortunately Environmentalism does Nothing to combat Global Warming.

 

[atreas]

State Property is clearly very powerful in this game. But there is a serious problem that needs to be attended: in large Pangea or huge maps, the maintenance cost becomes so high that the game loses much of its beauty. Thus it was necessary to have a mechanism to make these maps somehow playable - and they chose State Property (I believe) due to the size of USSR. I have no problem with names, so I don't care: this civic could be named however you want, as long as there is one civic that allows the player to use the huge maps.

But Communism wasn't unbalanced in previous CIV - one could argue that Democracy was always the best government.

 

[naterator]

this actually seems pretty accurate to me. in small empires, it's somewhat wasted, but over a large empire, state property + communism are tremendously powerful. the USSR's demise had more to do with corruption and mismanagement than it's communal nature. in civ terms, they built more units than they could afford to maintain. china's doing alright with this system right now (the chinese people, not so good, but we're all leaders here).

 

[Ephor]

I thought that state property was supposed to ruin an economy not help make it the most powerful thing on earth... next to my army of course

State ownership typically results in shortages and surpluses since people don't have the incentive to allocate resources properly or even try that hard when out of a competative market. However, if you don't have a developed market (i.e. lots of pre-industrial, decentralized, self-sufficient cities), state ownership will get resources in there quick while being a burden to further growth.

It's a little overpowered for now, but ideally the choice between state property and free market is the choice between growing up (with development) or growing out (with military expansion). Since most civ players go for military/domination/outward growth, state propety makes sense.

 

[Mutineer]

I do not know why you found State probably beneficial.
I never run it and I often have domination of population (UN) wins.
I prefure jump from free market to Enviromentalism, as it let me grow my cities faster and bigger. In addition I pratically neve build water mill and workshops. I play on Monarch/Empiror dificulty.

 

[Ephor]

this actually seems pretty accurate to me. in small empires, it's somewhat wasted, but over a large empire, state property + communism are tremendously powerful. the USSR's demise had more to do with corruption and mismanagement than it's communal nature. in civ terms, they built more units than they could afford to maintain. china's doing alright with this system right now (the chinese people, not so good, but we're all leaders here).

Um, China is de facto free market right now, that's why there's so much foreign investment (much of it American) going to China and private businesses trying to crack their emerging market.

Their "communist" aspects come from party management. In civ terms, they have police state and nationalism without having state property.

 

[Tee Kay]

I have no problem with this. In fact, I once had this combination:
Universal Suffrage
Free Speech
Emancipation
State Property
Free Religion

 

[Chamaedrys]

1.

But Communism wasn't unbalanced in previous CIV - one could argue that Democracy was always the best government.

In Civ2 Democracy was complete USELESS because the senat don't let you go to war

2. The "state property" button is not correct. It show's an the (Tsaristic?) Eagle!!!
Why didn't they use 'hammer and sichel' or a red star which really fit to this Civic?

 

[GIO888]

State Property should be called "Corporatism" to sooth us Libertarians who know it's not communism, because that would then have to be wasteful, corrupt and scientifically moribund.

Just an opinion, of course.

 

[Econo Miser]

I think that State Property should have some penalty for Markets and Grocers. State controlled industries could maintain a low price for goods at the state run stores, but the shelves would often be empty.

 

[Chinetter]

Civ works well precisely because the game designers are smart enough to ignore debates about whether this or that game element is realistic. It's a game, not a simulation -- so game balance is 100% of what matters. The designers make this clear in the Civ IV manual when writing about religion, and they clearly get it with things like civics too. (I wish they didn't actually, maybe if they'd worried about things like whether State Property "should" be as powerful as Free Market the damn game would be unbalanced and hence less addictive!)

For game balance, the point made above about huge maps seems right.

 

[N3pomuk]

hmmm last I checked the PR of CHina had some huge coruption scandals and problems, but thats just the BBC talking in me. I believe Stat property is grosely overpowerd I'd sugest EXTRA (as in higher than high) upkeep costs (because it puts the burden of the extra Burocracy on the government trather than the open market) but in return let farms produce +1 comerce this should balance it out oh yea and remove that +1 food for workshops, having the state own somthing will not magicly create food from production sites!


cheers
PS: I have a grudge with the whole civics implementation in civ4 I would rather see direct boni and mali as in SMAC, that was great stuff

 

[KrikkitTwo]

hmmm last I checked the PR of CHina had some huge coruption scandals and problems, but thats just the BBC talking in me. I believe Stat property is grosely overpowerd I'd sugest EXTRA (as in higher than high) upkeep costs (because it puts the burden of the extra Burocracy on the government trather than the open market) but in return let farms produce +1 comerce this should balance it out oh yea and remove that +1 food for workshops, having the state own somthing will not magicly create food from production sites!


cheers
PS: I have a grudge with the whole civics implementation in civ4 I would rather see direct boni and mali as in SMAC, that was great stuff

Well actaully Lower Maintenance generally fits well with State Property, because that means it is most useful when you have an Undeveloped Empire (such as the type aquired from Conquest) as you become more developed, Commerce becomes more valuable than Maintenance Savings (Courthouses, Marketplaces, Banks, etc.)

The problem is it is a bit too good, so by changing the Maintenance from None to Medium, then it would be slightly more cost than Free Market for very Small empires, but much lower cost than FM for large Empires. (because of Distance)

 

[Chamaedrys]

Well actaully Lower Maintenance generally fits well with State Property, because that means it is most useful when you have an Undeveloped Empire (such as the type aquired from Conquest) as you become more developed, Commerce becomes more valuable than Maintenance Savings (Courthouses, Marketplaces, Banks, etc.)

The problem is it is a bit too good, so by changing the Maintenance from None to Medium, then it would be slightly more cost than Free Market for very Small empires, but much lower cost than FM for large Empires. (because of Distance)

The best to balance state property would be a great penalty for Great person. The huge bureaucracy makes it harder for the people to use their talents.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The best to balance state property would be a great penalty for Great person. The huge bureaucracy makes it harder for the people to use their talents.

Well I feel that would be a 'complicating' penalty, right now no Civic has more than 3 different effects (one being the maintenance cost of the Civic)

By adding another penalty like that it would work towards making the civic system more complicated.