In which we discuss Madurismo

[ReindeerThistle]

You'll like my edit above...

 

[TheLastOne36]

As I also said, TLO, I actually understand and sympathize with yours and your family's situation, as it is not negatable.

However, unless your family is torching free clinics and subsidized food marts, I doubt anyone considers them fascist pigs...

If you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to hear it. However, if it is the case your family is torching clinics, then I would like to know that, too.

My grandmother cannot get the medical supplies needed to treat her cancer due to shortages and government rations, and no doctors are able to serve her since they are not being paid by the government and private clinics are not allowed to operate. My grandmother cannot go to Colombia for treatment because the borders are closed and her savings were destroyed due to inflation.

My family is middle class today and they are lucky enough to have the means to drive around until they find a grocery store with something in their shelves in order to have the luxury to wait in lines.

When my family does get lucky and finds a bottle of milk or whatever, the daily (or often twice daily) 2-4 hour blackouts means their food gets spoiled anyway.

Here's to hoping that government supporting thugs don't break into their apartment complexes and vandalize and destroy their cars in the night so that my family can repeat the process tomorrow!

 

[ReindeerThistle]

My grandmother cannot get the medical supplies needed to treat her cancer due to shortages and government rations, and no doctors are able to serve her since they are not being paid by the government and private clinics are not allowed to operate. My grandmother cannot go to Colombia for treatment because the borders are closed and her savings were destroyed due to inflation.

Where does your grandmother live that the clinic is not open and they are not treating her cancer? And since when were private clinics there not allowed to operate? Because there are certainly private doctors and a large Medical Association who does not approve of the socialization.

I believe your story, I just want to know if it's systemic or incidental, because it evokes more questions than provides answers.

How did inflation wipe out het savings? Do you mean she spent her savings because she does not earn enough to keep up with prices?

My family is middle class today and they are lucky enough to have the means to drive around until they find a grocery store with something in their shelves in order to have the luxury to wait in lines.

That is lucky, als, and isn't gas subsidized

When my family does get lucky and finds a bottle of milk or whatever, the daily (or often twice daily) 2-4 hour blackouts means their food gets spoiled anyway.

We survived 36 hours of blackout in the summet of 2003 by keeping the fridge door closed. Tell your family (We deal a lot with US families who get their electricity shut off and we have to fight to restore it) that they can plan for these things -- since they are frequent -- by using more dry goods for meals and waiting out the blackouts by keeping the fridge door shut until the power comes back on.

Here's to hoping that government supporting thugs don't break into their apartment complexes and vandalize and destroy their cars in the night so that my family can repeat the process tomorrow!

I hope so, too... I wish your family well.

 

[TheLastOne36]

The problem is systemic. Those clinics you like so much are not nearly as accessible or as great an alternative as you think they are. Regular hospitals are now starved for funding and are unable to operate as the government prioritizes the Cuban clinics. I'd like to tell you more as I've given the medical system a good deal of thought in the past but I need to remember and double-check with some facts. I do however greatly appreciate your sympathy. Last time I brought up my grandmother's cancer on here, I was told by our other resident Reds that cancer treatment was cosmetic and shouldn't be prioritized.

My grandmother (and indeed, the vast majority of Venezuelans) only hold currency, contrary to what several individuals in this thread have stated. So inflation hurts them, and high +50% inflation hurts them severely. The wage freeze doesn't help either.

Gas is subsidized and it has been for decades. Last I heard however, gas prices are going up. It shall be interesting to see what happens as increasing gas prices wasn't something even Chavez could do while I was living in the country. He attempted it and Caracas revolted and he almost lost support from his caucus.

Truth is, Venezuelans are spoiled when it comes to gas. Venezuelans treat their cheap gas as a god-given human right, same as food and water. Given all that is happening right now though, right now might be the best time for Maduro to raise gas prices while everyone is distracted, ala the shock doctrine.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

TLO, I don't know who would have claimed your grandmother's cancer was cosmetic, but those of us who have chosen to pursue life would never even think of saying such a thing. As I have pointed out on this forum, I have buried three comrades in three years because of cancer and we spared no effort in prolonging their lives. I sincerely hope for the best for you and your family..

I don't want to sound undecided, I am supporter of the BRV and 21st Century socialism, and I am well aware of the costs some individuals pay in any unequal society. Yes, current Venezuelan society is unequal, as are ALL societies. The way you feel and your attitude is understandable. Nobody, especially an old Red 4,000 miles from Caracas, is going to change your mind and I hope I have not slighted your personal family situation in any way.

That said, my support of 21st Century socialism comes with that understanding and a desire to see an end to all forms of violent death... be it for lack of medical care or lack of money...poverty is violent. Perhaps were I in your shoes I would feel differently about the BRV.

However, everything that has happened to working people in my experience has been at the hands of capitalism in the US: justice denied, vital health care services denied, living wages denied. That is why I choose the fight I have. That is why I do not intend to give up that fight. I do believe we can build a better world... others simply don't agree with how I see it.happening.

Please keep me informed of your.specific situation, if you desir; now that I know, it's hard not to want to know more.

 

[W|M]

We survived 36 hours of blackout in the summet of 2003 by keeping the fridge door closed. Tell your family (We deal a lot with US families who get their electricity shut off and we have to fight to restore it) that they can plan for these things -- since they are frequent -- by using more dry goods for meals and waiting out the blackouts by keeping the fridge door shut until the power comes back on.

Venezuela is in the tropics, so food goes spoiled a lot quicker than it does in the mainland US.

 

[TheLastOne36]

That said, my support of 21st Century socialism comes with that understanding and a desire to see an end to all forms of violent death... be it for lack of medical care or lack of money...poverty is violent. Perhaps were I in your shoes I would feel differently about the BRV.

I do respect where you are coming from ideologically speaking, even if I do not agree with your views. However, it is my belief that your support for the BRV is misplaced and believe that someone of your dogma should be condemning the BRV, not supporting it.

You are far from the first supporter of 21st century socialism I've encountered - I've lived in Venezuela after all. I have known many intelligent people (and many more not so much ) who've supported Chavez originally and the brand of socialism he advocated for. Those same people voted for a center-left candidate in the last elections in Henrique Capriles and are now currently on the streets protesting against the tyranny of the state and its kleptocratic nepotist elite.

Considering what I just said, you can see why from my POV your posts in this thread have the appearance of following state propaganda blindly and being perceived as counter-intuitive to the beliefs you hold.

 

[innonimatu]

The figure you quoted is indeed peanuts, you should be embarrassed of even bringing it up. And as for the the aim of the money, "technical assistance, capacity building, connecting them with each other and international movements", oh wow, what a conspiracy.

Do you ever get embarrass at being proven wrong by the news, Luiz? Do you want me to tell people about what USAID is actually about? Here is anoter very recent example of one of its destabilization operations uncovered:

U.S. secretly created ‘Cuban Twitter’ to stir unrest

WASHINGTON — In July 2010, Joe McSpedon, a U.S. government official, flew to Barcelona to put the final touches on a secret plan to build a social media project aimed at undermining Cuba’s communist government.

McSpedon and his team of high-tech contractors had come in from Costa Rica and Nicaragua, Washington and Denver. Their mission: to launch a messaging network that could reach hundreds of thousands of Cubans. To hide the network from the Cuban government, they would set up a byzantine system of front companies using a Cayman Islands bank account, and recruit unsuspecting executives who would not be told of the company’s ties to the U.S. government.

McSpedon didn’t work for the CIA. This was a program paid for and run by the U.S. Agency for International Development, best known for overseeing billions of dollars in U.S. humanitarian aid.

According to documents obtained by The Associated Press and multiple interviews with people involved in the project, the plan was to develop a bare-bones “Cuban Twitter,” using cellphone text messaging to evade Cuba’s strict control of information and its stranglehold restrictions over the Internet. In a play on Twitter, it was called ZunZuneo — slang for a Cuban hummingbird’s tweet.

Documents show the U.S. government planned to build a subscriber base through “non-controversial content”: news messages on soccer, music, and hurricane updates. Later when the network reached a critical mass of subscribers, perhaps hundreds of thousands, operators would introduce political content aimed at inspiring Cubans to organize “smart mobs” — mass gatherings called at a moment’s notice that might trigger a Cuban Spring, or, as one USAID document put it, “renegotiate the balance of power between the state and society.”

Do read the whole piece. It's highly informative for those who, even after the revelations by wikileaks and about the NSA, still wish to believe that operations with the aim of overthrowing foreign governments are just "conspiracy theories".

No, they really are out to get them.

And you can read more about how this is the usual modus operandi, over here.

As for you reply about inflation, you're so far out of your depth on that one that I'm not bothering to answer. Your economic theory is that of the Chicago School. The present dominant one, sure. The one which got the world into a financial crisis and increased inequality and poverty in every country where it was applied... Inflation is bad for those who own financial assets. It is good for those indebted to them. Bad for creditors, good for debtors. Bad for the rich, good for the poor. It's as simple as that, except when you get into the territory of a currency becoming essentially unusable for trade (which only happens in hyperinflation scenarios).
The so-called "middle class", is, btw, currently asset-poor even in many supposedly "rich, western" countries. Many are, financially, net debtors. Just some food for thought - for all of you. Know where your best interests lie.

 

[luiz]

Do you ever get embarrass at being proven wrong by the news, Luiz? Do you want me to tell people about what USAID is actually about? Here is anoter very recent example of one of its destabilization operations uncovered:



Do read the whole piece. It's highly informative for those who, even after the revelations by wikileaks and about the NSA, still wish to believe that operations with the aim of overthrowing foreign governments are just "conspiracy theories".

No, they really are out to get them.

And you can read more about how this is the usual modus operandi, over here.

Eh, I'm not seeing anything wrong with any of this. Quite the opposite, if it's true I applaud it. Great way to get different political views into Cuba, dodging the censorship of the Castro dictatorship. From your link:

According to documents obtained by The Associated Press and multiple interviews with people involved in the project, the plan was to develop a bare-bones “Cuban Twitter,” using cellphone text messaging to evade Cuba’s strict control of information and its stranglehold restrictions over the Internet. In a play on Twitter, it was called ZunZuneo — slang for a Cuban hummingbird’s tweet.

Oh the horror! They want to evade Cuba's Stalinist censorship and actually expose Cubans to different worldviews! What a crime, how dare them!

Cubans can't know anything about the outside world because... because... well, they can't know just how much their country sucks! That's the socialist way, plurality of information is a Capitalist poison that must be kept out of the island-prison paradise.

So no. Still not seeing how they're funding a coup.

As for you reply about inflation, you're so far out of your depth on that one that I'm not bothering to answer. Your economic theory is that of the Chicago School. The present dominant one, sure. The one which got the world into a financial crisis and increased inequality and poverty in every country where it was applied... Inflation is bad for those who own financial assets. It is good for those indebted to them. Bad for creditors, good for debtors. Bad for the rich, good for the poor. It's as simple as that, except when you get into the territory of a currency becoming essentially unusable for trade (which only happens in hyperinflation scenarios).
The so-called "middle class", is, btw, currently asset-poor even in many supposedly "rich, western" countries. Many are, financially, net debtors. Just some food for thought - for all of you. Know where your best interests lie.

OK, quick question: do you actually believe most poor Venezuelans have financial debt that can be wiped out by inflation?

 

[ReindeerThistle]

luiz, Cubans know plenty about the "outside world," since they send hundreds of thousands of doctors and educators around the world to improve medical care and pedagogy. Including Venezuela.

And millions of Cubans would rather stay in their island paradise. But they do not mind doing their international duty.

Luiz, but, of course you're right; you have the might and point of view of 500 years of colonial oppression on your side.

 

[luiz]

luiz, Cubans know plenty about the "outside world," since they send hundreds of thousands of doctors and educators around the world to improve medical care and pedagogy. Including Venezuela.

And millions of Cubans would rather stay in their island paradise. But they do not mind doing their international duty.

Luiz, but, of course you're right; you have the might and point of view of 500 years of colonial oppression on your side.

Can you tell me what is the justification for censoring Twitter and countless other media outlets in Cuba? Can you tell me what is the justification for total absence of freedom of the press, and very limited freedom of expression?

Surely, if Cuba is so great just being exposed to foreign media (or even propaganda) would be completely harmless, no? Why can't they even read whatever books they want? Why can't they listen to whatever radio stations they want? Why is even teleSur, produced by the friendly Venezuelan government, severely censored in Cuba? Why the need for all this tutelage?Are Cubans considered ******** by their own government?

As for 500 years of colonial oppression? WTH? I suppose you mean the age of my country of birth, Brazil? Well, I was born in 1985. My ancestors only immigrated to Brazil in the 20th Century... so not only have I never oppressed anyone, but I also don't descend from slave-owners or indian killers (not that it would matter if I did, but I don't).

 

[innonimatu]

Eh, I'm not seeing anything wrong with any of this. Quite the opposite, if it's true I applaud it. Great way to get different political views into Cuba, dodging the censorship of the Castro dictatorship. From your link:

Oh the horror! They want to evade Cuba's Stalinist censorship and actually expose Cubans to different worldviews! What a crime, how dare them!

No, they want to goad cubans into depending on a new "social network", win them over with non-political content, and the use it to disseminate propaganda to serve US interests, namely replacing a government which resisted economic penetration by american interests with another one willing to sell out the island for a pittance. Its a script that has been tested many times already. In this particular case it failed and it was the US Congress itself that pt a stop to it before it became too embarrassing.

I'm not posting to convince you, Luiz. I know that you are a propagandist for a certain world view who will not change discourse whatever may happen. I'm posting it for anyone else who may read the thread. As a kind of antidote to the crap you continually spew here. You see, I'm not advocating for the current Cuban government. I'm merely pointing out that when the cuban government, and others around the world, complain that adversary countries are fomenting unrest there, they are right.
I'm waring people that these "protests" that occasionally erupt here and there around the world, are not "spontaneous" at all. And that they should probably think twice, or thrice, before becoming cannon fodder for some hidden faction pulling the strings of the show. Shade of gray, that's what the world is full of. Not black and white like you would have people believe.

I doubt that most poor Venezuelans do not presently have financial debt. They would surely have it under a different government which cared about inflation as much as you do! And neither do they have large financial assets, otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?

 

[luiz]

No, they want to goad cubans into depending on a new "social network", win them over with non-political content, and the use it to disseminate propaganda to serve US interests, namely replacing a government which resisted economic penetration by american interests with another one willing to sell out the island for a pittance. Its a script that has been tested many times already. In this particular case it failed and it was the US Congress itself that pt a stop to it before it became too embarrassing.

I'm not posting to convince you, Luiz. I know that you are a propagandist for a certain world view who will not change discourse whatever may happen. I'm posting it for anyone else who may read the thread. As a kind of antidote to the crap you continually spew here. You see, I'm not advocating for the current Cuban government. I'm merely pointing out that when the cuban government, and others around the world, complain that adversary countries are fomenting unrest there, they are right.
I'm waring people that these "protests" that occasionally erupt here and there around the world, are not "spontaneous" at all. And that they should probably think twice, or thrice, before becoming cannon fodder for some hidden faction pulling the strings of the show. Shade of gray, that's what the world is full of. Not black and white like you would have people believe.

I doubt that most poor Venezuelans do not presently have financial debt. They would surely have it under a different government which cared about inflation as much as you do! And neither do they have large financial assets, otherwise they wouldn't be poor, would they?

You're not gonna convince anyone, because what you posted is not the orchestration of a coup, it's not sabotage, it's not terrorism. It's merely an attempt to circumvent Cuban censorship and expose Cubans to a different viewpoint, namely, that of the US. This isn't exactly new, and was done to many countries with heavy censorship, from Nazi Germany to the USSR to Cuba (Americans have been broadcasting to Cuba pretty much since the Revolution, and the Cuban government has been jamming it also ever since).

The relevant fact is not that the American government would try to broadcast it's views, or propaganda as you say. There's absolutely nothing wrong or "dangerous" with that. What is wrong is that the island-prison jams the signal of foreign radios, blocks Twitter and the likes, controls what books may be printed or even read, bans foreign TV stations and censors even content from TeleSur, which is made in friendly Venezuela. This is the extent of the Stalinist censorship imposed by the Castro tyranny. I wish the American government success in it's attempt to circumvent this firewall.

As for debt... you're obviously not very familiar with the situation of the Latin American poor. Fact is, they by and large have no access to the financial markets. So unlike in the US, the poor there are not indebted (not formally anyway; they may get loans from loansharks, but it's not like inflation makes that kind of loan go away). And while they obviously don't have a lot of money, they do have some, in cash, as that is their main insurance and usually also the "working capital" of informal business. So inflation screws them royally.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

How a 29 year-old man can become a grumpy old cold warrior is a mystery if modern society.

Just saying.

Anyway, looks like 21st Century Socialism ("Madurismo") is here to stay... and I never did like Kevin Spacey or Mario Vargas Llosa, anyway....

 

[luiz]

I want the Cold War to be over, man. I want Cuba to be an awesome place, free and cosmopolitan and prosperous.

Vargas Llosa is awesome, BTW. 100 times better than that bore Garcia Marquez (pun intended).

I didn't get the Kevin Spacey reference, though...

 

[Gucumatz]

How a 29 year-old man can become a grumpy old cold warrior is a mystery if modern society.

Just saying.

Anyway, looks like 21st Century Socialism ("Madurismo") is here to stay... and I never did like Kevin Spacey or Mario Vargas Llosa, anyway....

If anything, this whole debate has proven the instability of Madurismo. Within 10 years the party will become an opposition party and views will be moderated and there will be a real exchange of ideas unlike now. Looking at it analytically, it seems that the current incarnation of Madurismo is doomed to fail. I am curious to see how the party changes in Venezuela in this coming decade, since it looks all but inevitable.

 

[TheLastOne36]

If you think PSUV will give up their control of the state democratically, you haven't been paying attention.

Maduro is here to stay, and for a long time I suspect. "Madurismo" has succeeded in establishing a caudillo, I'll grant it that much.

edit: Actually, given how much Maduro is despised within his own party, I wouldn't be surprised if down the line he is replaced (especially should he start acting on his own accord rather than following Cuban influence) by another player. Diosdado Cabello probably.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Look at the bright sides, amigos:

The Hunger Eradication Initiative of the United Nations has Been Named "Hugo Chávez Frías"

By YVKE MUNDIAL
Translation: Revolucion Alimentaria

According to Raul Benitez, the Food and Agriculture (FAO) Director for Latin America and the Caribbean.
“It is the best way that we have to honor this man who was such a visionary in this area. He was 10 years ahead of the rest of the world leaders and he was effective,” he said on the program Cruce de Palabras [Intersecting Words) that is transmitted on Telesur.

He explained that at the moment the organization is making strides applying a program that will permit the less fortunate sectors of society to have access to nutrition.

“We have never produced as much as we do today, yet 840 million people are starving around the world. In Latin America and the Caribbean there are 47 million brothers and sisters who suffer from starvation. The problem isn’t in the production of food, but access to it.” At the same time he expressed that the regional bloc CELAC (Union of Latin American States and the Caribbean) is the one that has mostly advanced in its fight against hunger during the last couple of years.

He also emphasizes the commitment by multinational organizations such as Unasur (Union of South American Nations), Mercosur, CELAC, Petrocaribe and Caricom to eradicate hunger.

“The political commitment to eradicate hunger by these multinational organizations which play a role in the region has been incredible”.

The country who is of greatest need at the moment is Haiti, but “the intensity by which his (former Pres. Chavez’s) government pursues this gives me optimism.” At the same time, the country that has mostly advanced in this area is Nicaragua.

Benitez pointed out that the FAO plans to eradicate hunger in the region before 2025, “and I think we will accomplish this.”

So... that's my input! Plus we recruited two more US organizers this week!

Let's say that ugly word: "SOCIALISM!"

 

[W|M]

San Diego and San Cristobal elect the wives of mayors who were previously arrested:

Spoiler :

People in San Diego and San Cristobal voted for new mayors after the previous office holders were jailed

The wives of two jailed opposition mayors in Venezuela have won elections to replace them.

The two women, whose husbands were sentenced earlier this year over their failure to contain opposition protests, won by a landslide.

Venezuela has been disrupted by mass anti-government protests since early February.

Talks between the government and the opposition to resolve the crisis are currently stalled.


Landslide

Patricia Gutierrez won 73% of the vote in the western city of San Cristobal, while Rosa Brandonisio won in the central city of San Diego with 88%.

Patricia Gutierrez, whose husband Daniel Ceballos is serving a one-year sentence, won 73% of the vote

Rosa Brandonisio (centre) will become the new mayor of San Diego after winning 88% of the vote

Their husbands, Daniel Ceballos and Vicencio Scarano, were sentenced to 12 and 10 months in prison respectively for their refusal to remove street barricades set up by protesters.

San Cristobal and San Diego are opposition strongholds and the women's victory came as no surprise.

But analysts say that the wide margin of their win over the governing PSUV party will still be seen as a boost to the opposition.

"The result of these elections has shown that power and abuse have received a big lesson," the opposition MUD, for which both women stood, said in a statement.

An official for the PSUV party recognised the opposition's win and said that "everyone had to learn from the lesson" voters had taught.

The two cities saw some of the worst violence during the unrest, in which 42 people from both sides have been killed.


Stalled negotiations

The demonstrations first began in San Cristobal, where students took to the streets demanding an end to high levels of insecurity.

They quickly spread to other cities and became a wider movement joined by tens of thousands of Venezuelans disgruntled by high inflation and shortages of basic food items.

President Maduro warned he would not allow a repeat of the violent protests which rocked San Cristobal

Talks mediated by the Unasul regional bloc are frozen after the opposition pulled out.

The MUD says it will not return until the government releases hundreds of people jailed during the protests.

The government accuses the protesters of trying to topple President Nicolas Maduro.

On Sunday, the president warned he would not allow any more unrest in San Cristobal or San Diego.

"If they go crazy and start burning the municipality again, the authorities will act... and elections will be called every three months, until there is peace," he said before the election results had been announced.

 

[Agent327]

Look at the bright sides, amigos:

The Hunger Eradication Initiative of the United Nations has Been Named "Hugo Chávez Frías"

The news to me is that there is still hunger in 'the region' 2 centuries after most countries gained independence. At least most affected African countries have the excuse that they only gained independence last century.

It is no news to me that you misread the FAO for a Latinamerican initiative. Perhaps they can be a sport and also help out your favourite Asian republic to eradicate hunger by 2025.