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Inca Religious Victory Games Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Hall of Fame Discussion' started by Firmlife, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    Thanks Sun Tzu Wu. Admittedly, the slot I picked was one of the weakest of the Deity Religious slots, so it was ripe for a multi-turn beat-down, but my current Civ4 focus, when I play, is on some of the other considerably less ripe slots.

    I've been toying with the idea of using the strategies I'm learning in these Deity games to dominate one of the lower levels of Religious HOF slots, most likely Immortal. However, I noted in another thread that I'm certain I could never innovate in Civ4 as well as WastinTime does. I consider whether or not I have the requisite cleverness a somewhat open question. But innovating and dominating in Civ4 also requires a certain something, some kind of drive, a combination of time, passion, commitment, patience, and perhaps, madness, that I'm positive I lack. That lack, sadly, will also interfere with me carrying out these plans.

    So I implore you, Sun Tzu Wu. We're clearly past the point of persuasion. "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious." I suggest you embrace some guerrilla tactics. Aid me in executing my plan to make all Religious slots everywhere in the HOF owned by Inca. If they will not listen to reason, persuade them by action. After all, "To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy."

    And to respond to a point WastinTime made in the other thread. Yes, I see that in certain circumstances you can worker steal with other races even on Deity. However, you cannot take one of your target's cities, convert it, and gift it back to them as a poison pill without Quecha. Nor can you take a city and use it to pump out a couple workers or even the AP. Worker stealing with a non-Inca won't prohibit victory, since you can sometimes get Open Borders with your target after peace. But I'm convinced that the best Inca Religious game will always beat other leaders by several turns.
     
  2. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    This is probably the best way to revive the idea of having an "alternate view" of the HoF (a.k.a. Inca filter)
    The reality is, years and years later, the Inca still don't own enough spaces to warrant an alternate view. I wish you luck on your quest! You will enjoy the dark side.
     
  3. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    I applaud your articulate, well crafted and very compelling offer. I have actually considered this on my own in the past few months, but did nothing substantial about it.

    Has anyone noticed that the Inca filter poll has tipped back to ~55% in favor and ~45% against?

    I find your offer appealing, because I really do dislike the Inca Civ and its Quechua for being so overpowered and cheap in the early Ancient Era when the AIs are least able to defend themselves. I agree to your proposal. We shall be fighting the "dark side" with its own weapon (the Quechua), but we do this for our non-Inca player Civs (so they get the recognition they deserve on the Hall of Fame).

    I assume you mean just Monarch through Deity, where the AIs all start with Archers. The value of Quechuas on Settler through Prince difficulty levels depends on the replacement of Warriors with Archers over time.

    In my opinion, this plan is too much fun to keep to ourselves. I suggest that we open it up to all players. No player will be tasked with beating his own #1 game, unless he really wants to. Who wants to join us?

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  4. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    You are probably right about this.

    This is your opinion. The poll now shows ~55% in favor of the Inca filter. I also believe some voted against it, because they wanted more filters than just Inca; they probably would accept whatever filters The Hall of Fame staff decides to provide, including the Inca filter.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  5. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    The poll is irrelevant. All that matters is what the admins think. Although part of the idea is to inflict so much pain on everyone that they run to the forums clamouring for relief, thereby doing our work for us. As you once wrote, "To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting." Or arguing on the forums. <--- I added that last part myself ;)

    I certainly plan to start at the higher ranks where the Quecha's advantage is greatest. But the Quecha is still quite powerful vs warriors and is not the only advantage Huayna Capac possesses for Religious games. All the lower games are quite vulnerable to a worker-steal plan of attack, as I was able to beat them well before I could hope to win on Deity, much less take #1 HOF spots, Inca-owned or otherwise. After that, whether or not it's best to take our battle to lower level Religious games or to other high level games (Space, Diplomacy, etc) I cannot say.

    Do you want to start with Immortal or Emperor? I'll take the other. But spare my 2 Immortal entries if you would :D
     
  6. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    "Today will be a day long remembered. It has seen the death of Kenobi, and soon the fall of the rebellion."
     
  7. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    I'm hoping more players will join us.

    For now, we can split things by difficulty level. You can start with Immortal. I'll work on Emperor.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  8. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    That's a different story line. In the "real" story line, you are the one that started this rebellion months ago.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  9. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    Just so we're on the same page. In this analogy, I am Darth Vader. I was once good, but I've been swayed by the Dark Side which I now embrace. I hope to convert more Jedi to the Dark Side. Tho my evil empire may have "caused a rebellion", technically, it takes rebels to "start a rebellion".
    I look forward to the end of the rebellion.
     
  10. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    Wait... so are you his father??? I am so confused!
     
  11. WastinTime

    WastinTime Deity Supporter

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    In a sense, I was the father of Deity Religious games in that I held many of the early top spots and played many of the first Bismarck/Qin games.
     
  12. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    First slot done, assuming it's accepted. Beat the previous best on Epic speed (Qin) by 32 turns.

    I'm not sure how this analogy is supposed to work. I'm a jedi using the dark methods to discredit them and bolster the rebellion? If the plan works, we'd be heroes, but if it doesn't we'd be traitors to the cause, having brought the end of the rebellion faster?
     
  13. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    That would be Tiny Epic, right? 32 turns is an awesome improvement over the current #1 there, even for Inca. Very well done.

    I'll need to do a bit of catch up on Emporer. I'll get started this evening and should have some progress to report after the weekend for sure.

    If we succeed, non-Inca players will "love" us for the Inca filter. If we fail, non-Inca players will not "love" us for displacing their #1 games irretreivebly. Inca players probably won't care either way, since their games are being left untouched and the Inca filter only validates what they already know; its real/virtual presence or absence doesn't really affect them; thier preferred view of the tables will remain the same.

    There is still plenty of time to join us. shulec, you are pretty handy with Quechuas and want the Inca filter too. You are welcome to join us! Others that agreed with what we are doing are welvome to join too.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  14. shulec

    shulec Grrrrr... I AM the force! Hall of Fame Staff

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    No thanks! If you really want to accomplish something with #1 Inca games, start with anything but religious victories and end with religious victories!

    I believe a majority of HoF players will look at all Inca religious tables and say "Meh". :sleep:
     
  15. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    That is assuming they bother looking in the first place ;)
     
  16. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Sorry you won't be joining us.

    I don't believe that players whose non-Inca #1 games get displaced will be saying "Meh" :sleep:. Noone is apathetic about losing a #1 game regardless of the Victory Condition.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  17. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Players that can't bothered to look at the Hall of Fame Tables can't really be called Hall of Fame players, can they? We not interested in convincing "visitors".

    The Inca filter poll now shows ~55% in favor. Any comment from the HoF staff?

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  18. Ozbenno

    Ozbenno Fly Fly Away Moderator Hall of Fame Staff

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    Not overwhelming support, which would warrant a rethink on our behalf and if you take out those who have voted but never actually submitted a HOF game it is 50-50 ;)
     
  19. Sun Tzu Wu

    Sun Tzu Wu Deity Supporter

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    Not sure why the Hall Fame staff would ignore the votes of players that haven't submitted a HoF game. Merely voting in the poll shows they have an interest in the HoF, otherwise they would not have bothered to vote. Also there are players that never submitted a HoF game, but regularly do bother to refer the Hame of Tables as a benchmark for what is possible. Perhaps the HoF staff should ignore the votes of HoF players that can't even be bothered to look at the HoF Tables.

    Given that the Inca filter offers players optional functionality that they can use or not use, a super majority of support should not even be required. As little as 5-20% should suffice.

    For example, a software company will often provide a new feature to its users when as little as 5% ask for it, depending on the cost of providing it. It seems to me that filtering out Inca games from the Hall of Fame database shouldn't be that difficult to support via a checkbox.

    Sun Tzu Wu
     
  20. Firmlife

    Firmlife Chieftain

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    I think there's a great deal of truth to this, but, at least for me, two things work in favor of the current plan. First, I have no practice using Inca in any other types of games and suspect I'm not as good at it. My skill/attention level seems to go down the longer the game type. This is what I'm ready to do at this point in time. Second, religious is by far the fastest game type, especially on larger maps, which means that my efforts will have a greater impact with the limited time I have.

    This is also certainly a concern. But everyone knew Sun Tzu Wu dominated the Deity Religious slots. I think the Immortal and Emperor slots being taken over by Inca games played by two players over a period of, say, two months, will generate a lot of discussion. Especially if the previous bests are beaten by significant amounts, putting them essentially out of reach of any non-Inca leader.

    Still, for me, at least, the cause is a secondary concern. This is something I'd been contemplating anyway, and now I have additional motivation. If this isn't enough to sway people, and I still wish to pursue it, I'm certainly willing to learn to apply Inca to new game types.

    By the way, next game submitted, for Tiny Epic, 22 turns better than the previous. The game I mentioned before was for Duel Epic, 32 turns better. Both 1900's.
     

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