Inca Religious Victory Games Discussion Thread

[Sun Tzu Wu]

By the way, next game submitted, for Tiny Epic, 22 turns better than the previous. The game I mentioned before was for Duel Epic, 32 turns better. Both 1900's.

Excellent work. Two Inca games in two days, winning by huge margins roughly 16% 21% and 29% shorter respectively. 10% shorter is adequate in my opinion, but the bigger the better.

I should have some results to report later this weekend.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

In a sense, I was the father of Deity Religious games in that I held many of the early top spots and played many of the first Bismarck/Qin games.

Warning: This will mainly only be of interest to those who won an early HoF Deity RLDV #1 slot.

I was curious about this claim. So, I dialed back to Oct 11, 2007 and the Hall of Fame RLDV Slots are completely empty. Before everyone's time I imagine.

Oct 25, 2007: We see two Marathon (Small, Tiny) entries by Jimmy Thunder.

Jan 25, 2008: Mareck adds an entry (Duel Marathon).

Feb 11, 2008: Karmina adds an entry (Tiny Quick).

Feb 26, 2008: WastinTime 3/24 eclipses Jimmy Thunder and Mareck's efforts, Marathon, Small-Tiny-Duel with strong dates that last quite a long time.

Mar 10, 2008: WastinTime 5/24 improves two dates (why?) and adds two more (Standard Marathon and Tiny Epic).

Mar 26, 2008: WastinTime 10/24 improves the Tiny Epic (why?) and adds five more (Tiny Normal-Quick and Duel Epic-Normal-Quick).

Apr 25, 2008: WastinTime 11/24 adds an entry (Large Marathon).

Jun 25, 2008: Bram adds an entry (Small Normal); half the RLDV slots are now occupied.

Jul 10, 2008: Bram adds an entry (Standard Epic).

Sep 10, 2008: ozbenno adds an entry (Small Quick).

Sep 25, 2008: Karmina adds an entry (Small Epic); four players cover 15/24 slots.

Oct 10, 2008: Karmina takes Bram's Small Epic entry.

Oct 25, 2008: Sun Tzu Wu takes WastinTime's rather strong (at the time) Tiny Marathon slot; WastinTime goes down to 10/24.

Nov 10, 2008: Karmina takes WastinTime's Tiny Quick entry; Sun Tzu Wu takes WasinTime's Large-Standard Marathon and adds Huge Marathon; WastinTime goes down to 7/24.

Nov 25, 2008: Sun Tzu Wu takes WastinTime's Small Marathon slot; WastinTime goes down to 6/24.

Dec 10, 2008: WastinTime retakes Standard Marathon from Sun Tzu Wu; ozbenno adds Standard Normal; Sun Tzu Wu takes Standard-Small-Tiny-Duel Quick; WastinTime remains at 6/24, but Sun Tzu Wu surpasses him at 8/24. WastinTime never really recovers his dominance of the RLDV tables.

Mar 25, 2009: There have been changes between Dec 10, 2008 and Mar 25, 2009, but the real news is Misotu now dominates the RLDV tables at 11/24 matching WastinTime's previous best of 11/24. Misotu ends WastinTime's dominance convincingly. This is also the date that all RLDV slots are occupied.

Sep 11, 2009: There have been changes between Mar 25, 2009 and Sep 11, 2009, but the winds of change have arrived once more.

That was fun trip back into the early history of the HoF Diety RLDV Tables.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Manco Capac]

C'mon WastinTime. Let some merits to others (even if it turns to be false). You can't be father of everything (culture, score, AP deity, etc.).

Stepping, I sense rage/exasperation over here.

[/UselessComment]

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

C'mon WastinTime. Let some merits to others (even if it turns to be false). You can't be father of everything (culture, score, AP deity, etc.).

Stepping, I sense rage/exasperation over here.

[/UselessComment]

The facts mentioned are accurate; anyone can verify them by entering the dates mentioned above into the date drop down menu on The Hall of Fame main page. The commentary in the latter part of the post is open to personal interpretation, but tried my best to match it to the facts.

No "rage/exasperation" on my part; just a trip down memory lane.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[WastinTime]

Thx for the walk down memory lane. Don't take my comment about "father of RLDV" to be bragging or asserting that I "dominated" that VC, or tried to fill that whole table. I was only competitive mainly on Marathon and some of the really little maps (short games.) I just meant that I was one of the first to play it heavily.

When you've been around as long as I have, you can't help being the father (grandfather) of a lot of things. Not trying to say I was necessarily great at all those things, just first.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Thx for the walk down memory lane. Don't take my comment about "father of RLDV" to be bragging or asserting that I "dominated" that VC, or tried to fill that whole table. I was only competitive mainly on Marathon and some of the really little maps (short games.) I just meant that I was one of the first to play it heavily.

When you've been around as long as I have, you can't help being the father (grandfather) of a lot of things. Not trying to say I was necessarily great at all those things, just first.

I agree with you that your claim to be the Father of the Civ IV HoF RLDV is valid. You were to first to claim 11/24 slots and that should suffice, especially since we have no precise definition of what it means to be a father of a victory condition.

We don't have a precise definition of what dominating a VC table means either; I probably used that term rather generously in my post.

I also agree that you submitted some very tough to beat HoF Deity Marathon games over the years.

Glad you enjoyed my post.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@Firmlife:

You probably already know this, but ...

Maps with easy access to all land are best for RLDV. I have found that for smaller map size, especially Small and smaller that Lakes with Cylindrical Wrap are the best. Lakes can even be used on larger map sizes too. Alternatively, a Pangaea with Cold, Solid Coasts, Toroidal Wrap and smaller land area can be better for Standard to Huge maps. However, I've seen too many that are really thin and long which a make smaller land area counter-productive, since it can deny access to further away Civs until Open Borders.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@Firmlife:

Finally submitted an Inca Emperor level RLDV game:

Tiny Marathon improved by 17t or 10% (just barely met my self-imposed 10% improvement requirement).

BTW, for Normal games the margin can be lower (maybe 6%) and for Quick games the margin can be even lower (maybe 3%). On these quicker speeds, the Quechuas window of opportunity is smaller for a variety of reasons, but it can still easily capture Workers and Cities, especially if Quechuas are spammed as fast as possible, one every 3t on Normal and one every 2t on Quick.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Ozbenno]

There was too much traffic about this in the HOF Update discussion thread so I moved it all into here.

 

[neilmeister]

I think there's a great deal of truth to this, but, at least for me, two things work in favor of the current plan. First, I have no practice using Inca in any other types of games and suspect I'm not as good at it. My skill/attention level seems to go down the longer the game type. This is what I'm ready to do at this point in time. Second, religious is by far the fastest game type, especially on larger maps, which means that my efforts will have a greater impact with the limited time I have.



This is also certainly a concern. But everyone knew Sun Tzu Wu dominated the Deity Religious slots. I think the Immortal and Emperor slots being taken over by Inca games played by two players over a period of, say, two months, will generate a lot of discussion. Especially if the previous bests are beaten by significant amounts, putting them essentially out of reach of any non-Inca leader.

Still, for me, at least, the cause is a secondary concern. This is something I'd been contemplating anyway, and now I have additional motivation. If this isn't enough to sway people, and I still wish to pursue it, I'm certainly willing to learn to apply Inca to new game types.

By the way, next game submitted, for Tiny Epic, 22 turns better than the previous. The game I mentioned before was for Duel Epic, 32 turns better. Both 1900's.

Good luck, i think most of the immortal slots were mine, so they shouldnt be too hard to beat!

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Good luck, i think most of the immortal slots were mine, so they shouldnt be too hard to beat!

Don't be so modest. You have played some very strong Deity RLDV games (both Inca and non-Inca) in the past. I'm sure your Immortal RLDV #1 games aren't that much easier.

Inca will win by large margins simply because its so overpowered and the hard counter to the Quechua comes far too late for the AIs, especially when a Quechua is sitting on every strategic military resource (Copper, Iron, Horse) in the AI's Culture.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Firmlife]

Good luck, i think most of the immortal slots were mine, so they shouldnt be too hard to beat!

Yes, many of them are yours. While yours are concentrated on the smaller maps, where it makes sense to start, I will try to distribute who I displace as there's a good chance I give up part way through.

You're welcome to join us, too, by the way!

I've had some difficulty handling religion in larger maps and diplomacy in faster ones, but the next game is done. The game setup was absolutely perfect but my play was not, and I'm certain I cost myself at least two turns. Quick, duel in 45 turns.

My general goal is to match the Deity level times as far as possible, though in my experience Deity is easier due to several factors, mainly increased enemy workers and faster enemy tech. I had a 52 turn win (on the second vote) which didn't satisfy me, and I also have a Epic, Small win which I hope to improve on.

 

[WastinTime]

On Emperor, the AI doesn't even start with a worker, so I'd think the Deity/Immortal dates are not achievable without a lot of work/luck.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

@Firmlife and anyone else that joins us:

Firmlife, Duel Quick in 45t is an awesome Inca win!

Don't get too hung up on matching the Deity wins turn for turn. There are both good reasons why Immortal is easier than Deity (less beakers needed; more base Happiness/Healthiness) and harder (Worker steals delayed to about t14; fewer cities to capture earlier 1 versus 2 per Civ). It more or less evens out, especially for Inca which should have no fear of Deity level. However, I haven't played enough Inca RLDV on Immortal level to really know how it compares to Diety level (Haven't played much Inca Deity RLDV either).

Tip: Liberate cities when at peace or better yet liberate a city/cities as a final Peace Treaty with it. Each liberated city is worth 1.5 permanent diplomacy. This can really help on Quick speed especially. Two liberations can wipe out the -3 for a DoW for example. There are two ways, especially Inca, can liberate cities, give back captured cities before one's own culture starts to dominate and settle right on the edge of the AI's Border and immediately liberate it.

Great work on the additinal games you mentioned too.

I'm pausing my Inca RLDV quest to finish a long game I've been playing for quite some time. I did want to get at least one Inca Emporer RLDV game before the update to show my commiment to the quest. Once I finish this other game, I'll have more time to commit to the Inca RLDV quest.

For Tiny size, be sure to have 3 or 4 opponents so you can kill 1-2 and still have the 2 opponents needed for RLDV.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Firmlife]

Since it's been accepted, I was fooling around with a save from my last game seeing what I might do to optimize it. I had everything setup, Christianity in my empire and Hatshepsut's, and a city to gift back to De Gaulle when signing a peace treaty which had Christianity. Turns until next vote was down to 0, with a couple Votes until Next Election left.

In the accepted game, I waited until Hat was +7 with me, gifted the city to De Gaulle, and then there was a vote which I won. In fooling around with it, if I gift the city to De Gaulle a turn earlier than I actually did, there is a vote, but then I get the following message:

The election has been canceled: Religious Leader (Diplomatic Victory)

If I gift the city back the same turn I did in the actual game, there is no vote, no message of any kind, simply a new AP leader election when the counter runs down. I've seen this behavior in a couple previous games, but they weren't great dates, so I didn't think much about it.

Reloading and doing the moves a slightly different way, things work normally again.

Is this a recognized bug?

 

[WastinTime]

I wouldn't mind nailing down this feature (bug?) too. I think it may have something to do with the fact that DeGaulle switches to Christianity the turn after you gift the city. I"m glad you're exploring this.

 

[Sun Tzu Wu]

The election is cancelled in the turn the vote takes place when any Civ has 75% of the vote rounded down, so having just 6 of 9 votes can cause this, since 75% of 9 rounded down is 6.

If this is not the case, provide more details and I can explain what happened. After playing several hundred RLDV games (including those not submitted), I have probably hit every pitfall that can cause an early RLDV attempt to fail. Maybe you have run into one I've never seen, but rather doubt it.

Sun Tzu Wu

 

[Firmlife]

The election is cancelled in the turn the vote takes place when any Civ has 75% of the vote rounded down, so having just 6 of 9 votes can cause this, since 75% of 9 rounded down is 6.

Bingo.

Further playing around revealed that if Hatty does not have 75% or more of the possible votes the turn the vote is initiated, but then gains enough votes to put her over 75%, the election is canceled. If she has 75% from the beginning, there simply is no vote.

Of course, how anyone designing the game thinks that 15/21 is 75% in a mechanic that requires a minimum of 75% is beyond me. I know for a fact I've benefited by wining a 6/9 votes, but that doesn't make it any less absurd.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Congratulations on your awesome win and displacing an Inca win from the "Hall of Shame" "Hall of Inca Wins" and helping to transform it back to the Hall of Fame, game by game.

The term "Hall of Shame" "Hall of Inca Wins" is simply a way of expressing my disdain for #1 Inca games in the Hall of Fame.

Sun Tzu Wu

I suggest using just "Hall of Inca", then do amusing things like saying HOI HOI when Inca takes another #1 spot .

-from the creator of "Desert Fairy Magic" (Global warming) and "Failaxis" (civ IV patch patterns, civ V)

 

[Kaitzilla]

Global warming can be controlled.
From an old post.

The main problem is how to stop global warming. I've been scouring the forums and found this thread on the mechanics.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=280111


Rather than pray and get lucky, you have two options:

1) Forget building too many unhealthy buildings such as forges, factories, coal plants, labs, etc.. (Includes the AI) OR
2) Have 40% or more of the world covered in jungle/forests.

And don't fire any nukes!